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January 27, 1992
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I have an 1886 that, as told to me, was purchased through Abercrombi & Fitch. The bottom of the receiver and takedown extention have a stamped alighnment mark. I have not encountered this mark on anyother takedown. Does this mark devalue the rifle? If so how much? Thanks, RDB
April 15, 2005
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Roger,
I have seen the same (or similar) marks on several other Winchester TD rifles. It is not a factory marking.
This is an early Model 55 (owned by one of our WACA members) with the same alignment marks.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 19, 2006
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Roger –
What a beautiful and special rifle! And it’s a .50 Express! Amazing. Do you have a letter for it?
By the way, I can hear the drool dripping out of Tom’s mouth from here.
January 27, 1992
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The 1886 Letter does not mention the “Noshock” pad or the takedown case that were included in my purchase. I believe these were part of the Abercrombie & Fitch upgrades.
November 9, 2008
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wow! That’s a very nice 86!
October 29, 2011
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I have 11 TD 1886’S, including the 1st one Winchester sold..Fortunately, none have the mark on them Bill
January 27, 1992
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I have had only 5 1886 take downs. One has the “Mark”. So 20% of mine are “Marked”. 
I am not knowelagble enough to be a perfectionest. I have purchased what was made available to me and have not always made “good” or “correct” decisions. I just do the best I can with what is available to me. I wonder what the man who ordered this rifle, to take it to Africa to hunt big game, would say about how we see the modifications he chose? 
RDB
February 17, 2022
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Roger, That is a great gun in a really neat configuration and caliber. That Is defiantly one I could be happy owning. I am not a giant fan of the big 50’s… But I do like short barreled TD’s.
BTW Did I slobber to much Steve!!!???
Here’s one of my favorite TD’s, sorry it’s only a 45-90 folks
PS it’s the top one
June 4, 2017
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The alignment mark does not bother me but the the pad is a different subject. I totally get the reason it’s there but if the stock is cut it cuts the value. Neat gun, I like it. Pulling the trigger with period ammo would hurt. T/R
November 19, 2006
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oldcrankyyankee said
Roger, That is a great gun in a really neat configuration and caliber. That Is defiantly one I could be happy owning. I am not a giant fan of the big 50’s… But I do like short barreled TD’s.BTW Did I slobber to much Steve!!!???
Here’s one of my favorite TD’s, sorry it’s only a 45-90 folks
PS it’s the top one
Tom – very nice rifles!
Roger – thanks for posting the letter. Very neat that it letters as a .50 (along with the special order stock etc.)
What a fantastic hunting rifle (as are also Tom’s .45-90’a). There’s not much on the planet that any of those rifles couldn’t handle. And perfect for heavy woods close-in work. I can’t think of a modern weapon that would be better than these rifles.
I’ll never forget the movie, “The Revenant” with Leonardo DiCaprio and Tom Hardy. There’s a deep woods scene where an enormous grizzly gets the jump on Leo (it will make you jump out of your recliner). Having Roger’s .50 in your hands in that situation – couldn’t be improved upon. I’m not thinking of just the chambering, but the quick handling characteristics of that rifle. I think Leo was carrying a muzzle loader. It was the 1820’s. I’ve often thought I was born 100 years too late, but never 200 years too late 
January 27, 1992
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I too am not fond of the pad, but I understand the reason it was installed. This rifle went to Africa and was a ‘tool’ for a “Big Game Hunter”. This was a very desireable thing to do back then. Even the President of the United States had participated in setting the theme. I look at the weathered pad and then when I look in the mirror, I almost see similar wrinkles in my reflection. I am not a “Closet Queen”! Just a well used old man. 
RDB
November 19, 2006
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rogertherelic said
I too am not fond of the pad, but I understand the reason it was installed. This rifle went to Africa and was a ‘tool’ for a “Big Game Hunter”. This was a very desireable thing to do back then. Even the President of the United States had participated in setting the theme. I look at the weathered pad and then when I look in the mirror, I almost see similar wrinkles in my reflection. I am not a “Closet Queen”! Just a well used old man.
Roger –
I agree with everything you are saying. And I’m no closet queen myself.
There is the age-old battle within me – that part of me that appreciates a rifle for the purpose it was made – and was used for that purpose vs. the fussy/picky collector part of me. The two are often at odds.
This is a very collectible rifle. It could be a bit more collectible were there were no modification, but such is the fate of the majority of 100+ year old rifles out there.
Even though we often wish for zero modifications, when such rifles are found, their condition and status often price them out of an affordable range.
September 22, 2011
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The aftermarket marks are called “witness marks”. In a rifle in this condition, honest and not pristine, I would think it reduces the value by exactly zero.
But then you would have to question how much you would knock a rifle like this one in 99% condition whose only flaw is a witness mark. Probably not much. Maybe not at all.
As others already said, the bigger problem is the recoil pad not being factory. IF the stock has been cut, it hurts this rifle significantly. If not, I wouldn’t knock it much. I actually like the pad as it better fits its African big game past and looks the part, especially with the Lyman No 21 receiver sight. There was a time when Abercrombie & Fitch was something different from what it is today and you went there if wealthy, to be “outfitted”. If the fit of the recoil pad is excellent, there’s probably a good chance they did the work.
January 27, 1992
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There is a good possibility I tend to overlook some negatives and except an item for what it is. I view it as an ‘Historic Item’ that has made it’s place in history for what it was, what it did and what it is now. This may not be acceptable to the “Purest”. I understand that and can live with an other person’s views. I feel fortunate to have a “Big Fifty” that went there and did it’s job. If this rifle had been in diferent condition, I could never had afforded to buy it. As is, it still gaveled at $20 grand. RDB
September 22, 2011
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rogertherelic said
There is a good possibility I tend to overlook some negatives and except an item for what it is. I view it as an ‘Historic Item’ that has made its place in history for what it was, what it did and what it is now. This may not be acceptable to the “Purest”. I understand that and can live with an other person’s views. I feel fortunate to have a “Big Fifty” that went there and did its job. If this rifle had been in diferent condition, I could never had afforded to buy it. As is, it still gaveled at $20 grand. RDB
Do you think the stock has been cut?
If not, I see no significant demerits.
Other than a double rifle, this is exactly the rifle you would want to hunt big game on the Continent.
November 19, 2006
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Roger –
You bought your rifles for yourself and with your own interest and tastes in mind – not for other people. You didn’t look at a rifle and think, “I really like this – but what if other people don’t?” I’ve bought many rifles that way myself. That is even more true when I consider the non-Winchester genres I’ve ventured into. One huge advantage you having going for you is you bought Winchesters 
January 27, 1992
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I just measured the ‘length of pull’. 13 1/2″. So the stock was cut. Because this rifle was said to have been purchased through Abercrombie & Fitch, they are most likely to have done the stock modifications. The original owner had recently retired from U.S. Steel Co., where he had been V.P. in charge of the Midvale plant. I am not aware of his stature, but would surmise the rifle was fitted to suit him. When I bought the rifle the grandson was at the auction and we talked after the auction. I ask him about getting some provanance concerning the rifle. What he sent me was mostly concerning the “Dinkey Family” and nothing regarding the Grandfather directly. Then the grandson passed away and I lost further contact with the family. RDB
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