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I just purchased an 1876 45-60 rifle with a relatively shiny bore and visible rifling. I swaged the barrel and the bore diameter is .451" and the groove diameter is .454". The rifling is apparent when you look down the bore but when looking at the bullet I swaged down the barrel, you have to look pretty close to see the grooves!
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What was the diameter of the bullet you shoved down the bore? If it wasn’t .454 then its not going to show the full depth of the rifling.
As long as the gun shoots on target constantly and on point of aim the condition of the rifling is neither here nor there. I have some guns that look terrible and pitted to all get out but still have some nice groups at 100 yards. I got one gun with near mirror finish except for one bad spot about 2 inches from the muzzle. You can’t hit the broad side of a barn with it.
Sincerely,
Maverick
WACA #8783 - Checkout my Reloading Tool Survey!
https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-research-surveys/winchester-reloading-tool-survey/
Shooting jacketed bullets will help clean up the rifling and are more accurate with a pour bore.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
I am surprised the groove diameter is .454. I believe your bullet was not of sufficient diameter to accurately slug the bore. The 45 caliber Winchesters (45-60, 45-70 and 45-90) usually slug at very close to .457. I’ve slugged a few and Mike Venturino reports similar findings. Furthermore, looking at your bore photo, that rifling looks decent. I’ve shot a few that had barely visible rifling and one that looked like a corroded sewer pipe and I could still get five shot groups of 4" at 100 yards. Your rifle will definitely do better than that. Looking at your rifling, I would expect 5 shot groups at 100 yards to be no larger than 3" if you do your part.
The bullet I used was a 250 gr bullet that drops out of the mould at about .455 or so. I then put it on the cement floor of my garage and squash it a bit with a hammer to insure it is a tight fit, probably upwards of .460 or more. When I started it down the bore it was pretty hard to start, then got considerably easier after about the first 6 to 8 inches. Kind of like the rifling at the end of the bore is tighter then at the beginning. I also noted that when you push a tight patch down the bore that the jag and rod don’t spin but just go straight.
I’ve read where Mike mentioned that all the groove diameters he has swaged were .457 so I’m wondering if the rifling in this particular barrel has worn down to .454. I’m assuming that through a 130 years of normal shooting that a barrel can wear down the rifling. I have an old 22-250 that I have shot thousands and thousands of times and the rifling at the "goes outa" end of the barrel is still very prominent but the throat looks like Craters of the Moon at the "goes into" end.
Makes a guy wonder just what goes on with these old barrels that puts them in the shape that you find them in. I shoot Long Range Black Powder Cartridge silhouette and some of those rifles from the long time competitors that have been shot tens of thousands of times have bores that look brand new and they have only had black powder shot in them. And most of those guys just use some water based cleanser (windex with vinegar is common) and then push a clean patch, then a patch with bullet lube down the bore. The shooters in the "olden days" would have had access to this type of cleaning equipment. Maybe the steel is better or has a little chromium added or something??
I don’t have the hand loading experience of most of you all here. In my experiences with the poor bore I have I found that bullet selection seems to be making a big difference.
This rifle has minor pitting throughout and is missing a useful amount of rifling down at the end (.308" 180 gr. RN pictured). Don’t know how the muzzle end got that wore but I’m glad nobody cut if off to start over.
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With identical case, powder and primer I found that identical weight .308" FP bullets of slightly different design shoot very different with this rifle. I don’t know if it is how they are seated that is making the difference, or maybe the actual physical properties of the bullets that are making the difference but one particular FP will shoot 5-6"+ groups at 50 yards while another 1-2". I shot a few other bullets of different weights and tried a few different powders to get to this point for sure.
I’ve been working on the load for this a bit and have got decent results with this bore as shown below at 50 yards and at the bottom at 100 yards. The worst group there at 100 yards is still just under 3" and the one on the right just over 1". I feel confident enough now that the next time I do some hand loading I’ll be trying 5 and maybe 7 shot groups afterwards. This rifle isn’t going to win any contests but if I can load it reliable to 100 yards it will beat my expectations.
http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/hurint/media/loads3_zpsb7aa47ac.jpg.html
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Not trying to hijack your post here Gunrunner. This rifle has been teaching me a lot about loading, bores and acceptable rifling. I think in the future I really don’t want to fool with a poor bore, but if so I won’t throw in the towel until I try several different bullets.
Brad
Don’t worry about highjacking my post, Hedley. That’s what makes good conversation!
Was wondering if you slugged your barrel and measured your bullets? Maybe your bullets are slightly different diameters and the one is not engaging your rifling very well or some such thing. Its common knowledge about the dangers of cleaning your rifle from the muzzle end as it can do considerable wear to the barrel from the rod rubbing on it. Lever actions are prone to this as you have to disassemble the rifle to do it correctly. I would surmise that this is why your muzzle is so worn.
You can learn quite a bit about your barrel by pushing a slug down the bore as to just what a bullet experiences when being shot down it. I was pondering why my swaged bullet came out with very little distinct rifling on it and I got to wondering about why the cleaning rod doesn’t rotate when pushing a tight patch down the barrel. Maybe that’s the answer is that the rifling is so minimal that the bullet was skidding down the barrel. This would also make sense as to why it got easier to push the slug down after about 7 or 8 inches.
First you theorize, then you test… I think I will try this again but just push it down the bore a couple inches, then push it back out. Will need to disassemble the rifle to get to the chamber.
I’m going to shoot the rifle today using cases I made from 45-70 brass and shooting black powder behind some 250 grain pistol bullets I use for my 45 Long Colt shells. Don’t have my new bullet moulds yet or I would use the correct bullet. Ended up with 65 grains of 1 1/2F Swiss with about 1/8" of compression. The extra 5 grains was needed because of the small bullet.
Basically wanting to insure the rifle functions and to just shoot it to get a feel for it. I already found where the extractor/bolt appears to be slightly rotated which causes the extractor to just bump the edge of the little ramp cut in the end of the barrel for the extractor to fit in when the bolt is fully closed. This causes the extractor not to catch the rim of the case.
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Was wondering if you slugged your barrel and measured your bullets?
I measured bullets. However I did not have a micrometer and used a digital caliper. I didn’t notice a difference in diameters, but will concede a micrometer would be more accurate. I considered trying .309-.311 diameter for the reason of hopefully getting a tighter seal on the bore, but I don’t know if that would have mattered much down at the end where I believe it is oversize .006" +/-. I wanted to try to get a respectable load with .308" jacketed bullets first and then get into over-sized or possibly cast bullets if I couldn’t get anywhere. If I end up with something that can give me 5 shot groups at 100 yards that are 2-3" with a peep I will be satisfied and call it good. Right now I believe that is going to happen with .308" jacketed bullets.
You can learn quite a bit about your barrel by pushing a slug down the bore as to just what a bullet experiences when being shot down it. I was pondering why my swaged bullet came out with very little distinct rifling on it and I got to wondering about why the cleaning rod doesn’t rotate when pushing a tight patch down the barrel. Maybe that’s the answer is that the rifling is so minimal that the bullet was skidding down the barrel. This would also make sense as to why it got easier to push the slug down after about 7 or 8 inches.
I sort of ran into the same thing when I did mine. I felt that any measurement I got would be inaccurate however because I had to use a lot of taps to move the slug and was unable to move it in long strokes until the last 1′ of bore. I’m sure I did something wrong as it was the first time I tried this and it was amateur hour full-time. I enjoyed the experience so much that I would rather not try it again.
Its common knowledge about the dangers of cleaning your rifle from the muzzle end as it can do considerable wear to the barrel from the rod rubbing on it. Lever actions are prone to this as you have to disassemble the rifle to do it correctly. I would surmise that this is why your muzzle is so worn.
Yeah, I’ve heard that is a likely cause and I also have read arguments why that can’t be. Really makes no difference I guess since that was how I found it. I use a plastic bore guide at the muzzle and a one piece coated cleaning rod. One thing you mentioned about the cleaning rod not rotating with a tight patch reminded me of some of my own experiences. What you are thinking about the rifling makes sense. I’ve also found that when I use a .30 cal. rod and .30 cal jag in a .30 cal bore, the thickness and size of the patch seems to determine how well it rotates for me sometimes.
Good luck shooting
Brad
Hi Brad You are doing quite well to get the results you are with that worn Bore. Those bullets are defiantly spinning or you wouldnt be hitting the paper
I suspect that shooting cast will be frustrating , A gas check bullet may help they seem more forgiving
I find the plastic coated cable "pull thru" style bore cleaners to be excellent for lever bore cleaning from the chamber end I soak the bores overnight with good non ammonia solvents gunzilla is good as is Kroil mixed with shooters choice. With the soaking I only have to pull a brush thru a couple times , then pull thru solvent soaked patches,
I suspect if the pull thru s had been used since new all our bores would be excellent , and the simplicity and ease of using would have insured that the bore was cleaned after every time shot with the corrosive primers
Phil
I shot the rifle and it will hardly keep the shots on paper at 25 yards. Will try again when I get the correct bullets. Was very pleasant to shoot. Black powder residue in barrel was very excessive. Most likely won’t be able to shoot black in this barrel with the pitting and marks in the rifling.
Had issues with almost every shell where the extractor slips off. This definitely needs to be worked over. The rest of the rifle is great!
Hey at least you shot it and nothing blew up , Its just that you wont be entering it in any 1000 yd. shoots anytime soon. I have a 73 like that
Cheers
Gunrunner said
I shot the rifle and it will hardly keep the shots on paper at 25 yards. Will try again when I get the correct bullets. Was very pleasant to shoot. Black powder residue in barrel was very excessive. Most likely won’t be able to shoot black in this barrel with the pitting and marks in the rifling.Had issues with almost every shell where the extractor slips off. This definitely needs to be worked over. The rest of the rifle is great!
I’m sure you’ll get it fixed and figure out a respectable load with that rifle Gunrunner. Part of the fun of it all.
Brad
Like Townsend Whelen said, "Only accurate rifles are interesting!" and I totally agree. So you’re right, Brad, that I’m GOING to make it shoot. I just wish I had an underground 200 yard shooting range beneath my house!!
And at least it was punching round holes at the 25 yard point. I need to back up to 100 yards or more next time and take a GREAT BIG piece of paper to see if they key hole and are tumbling. As 25-20 mentioned to Brad, if they are still punching round holes at that range, they are spinning out the end of the barrel…
win38-55 said
I am surprised the groove diameter is .454. I believe your bullet was not of sufficient diameter to accurately slug the bore. The 45 caliber Winchesters (45-60, 45-70 and 45-90) usually slug at very close to .457. I’ve slugged a few and Mike Venturino reports similar findings. Furthermore, looking at your bore photo, that rifling looks decent. I’ve shot a few that had barely visible rifling and one that looked like a corroded sewer pipe and I could still get five shot groups of 4″ at 100 yards. Your rifle will definitely do better than that. Looking at your rifling, I would expect 5 shot groups at 100 yards to be no larger than 3″ if you do your part.
Just a thought. Pistol pullets are normally .452 where as rifle bullets are .454 or .458. If he use a .452 pistol bullet, that would account for the light lans and grooves impressions.
Gunrunner said
I’ve read where Mike mentioned that all the groove diameters he has swaged were .457 so I’m wondering if the rifling in this particular barrel has worn down to .454. I’m assuming that through a 130 years of normal shooting that a barrel can wear down the rifling. I have an old 22-250 that I have shot thousands and thousands of times and the rifling at the “goes outa” end of the barrel is still very prominent but the throat looks like Craters of the Moon at the “goes into” end.
Your comment makes me think you have not gotten a correct measurement. .454 would have more metal than .457 and it is impossible for a bore to grow in size. If it had worn down as you suspect, the bore would be larger rather than smaller.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
The measurements of my 45-60 Whitney-Kennedy were .450 & .461. I used a lead slip sinker.
James
For the Winchester 45-60, it is highly unlikely that the groove diameter would be .454. I suspect that the calipers were off, or there is severe leading just forward of the chamber. The latter would explain the very poor accuracy.
I’m surprised no one has offered thoughts on your extractor/canted bolt problem.
I’ve not been inside a ’76, but do have a ’73. It seems there are not many ways for the bolt to be misaligned. Will you be dismantling the rifle soon to see for yourself if something obvious is causing the problem? Or would you want me to look into the ’73 to try to help?
Heck–can’t resist; I’m headed for the safe!
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