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RickC said Hoofing it through the pucker brush or walking any distance, who wouldn’t prefer a sling
RickC
Nobody with good sense. I could tell you about a fellow I know who (when he was a lot younger) hunted in fairly rough terrain with a variety of single-shots, mostly Stevens & Ballards, but a couple of Winchesters, on every one of which he installed period-correct “J” swivels, such as could have been factory ordered at the time. He even made his own leather slings, which, if not totally correct, wouldn’t be mistaken for an Uncle Mike’s. To this day, he has no regrets, as a hunting rifle without a sling is an encumbrance, unless you take your shots from your pick-up or ATV or Texas-style cabin on stilts.
Just my $.02, but setting-up at gunshots has become quite expensive and thanks to the idiocracy, becoming more so. I’m noticing an increase in no-shows and unsold tables at popular shows as a result. I only do a couple a year and the typical cost for tables, gas, hotel and meals, is typically about $1,000. Not being one who courts the wrath of my understanding wife, I had better not come out too deeply in the red. All these factors determine the worth of my Winchesters in trades and outright sales. This being said, I notice a developing trend of only trading with established dealers and the same knowledgeable collectors, year after year. My only interaction with the general public other than tire-kickers, is purchasing walk-ins. If I looked at my love of antique firearms as a commercial endeavor, I would be working for free. We should all be thankful that there are still exhibitors whose primary reasons for doing shows are camaraderie and increasing their knowledge base.
[email protected] said We should all be thankful that there are still exhibitors whose primary reasons for doing shows are camaraderie and increasing their knowledge base.
The kind of knowledge that can’t be found in an auction catalog (likely containing many faked or otherwise misdescribed guns, such as that infamous engraved ’94 on the cover of the last Amoskeag catalog), nor in on-line listings of any other kind. But the sad truth is that auctions are now where most of the guns wind up that we formerly hoped to find on gun show tables.
clarence said
RickC said Hoofing it through the pucker brush or walking any distance, who wouldn’t prefer a sling
RickC
Nobody with good sense. I could tell you about a fellow I know who (when he was a lot younger) hunted in fairly rough terrain with a variety of single-shots, mostly Stevens & Ballards, but a couple of Winchesters, on every one of which he installed period-correct “J” swivels, such as could have been factory ordered at the time. He even made his own leather slings, which, if not totally correct, wouldn’t be mistaken for an Uncle Mike’s. To this day, he has no regrets, as a hunting rifle without a sling is an encumbrance, unless you take your shots from your pick-up or ATV or Texas-style cabin on stilts.
I think this is an example where buying a, “problem gun” makes sense. As a, “collector” I never want a problem gun. But as a shooter and hunter, problem guns can be the perfect choice – depending of course on what the, “problem” is. For example, added sling swivels or extra tap holes – there’s all types of alterations that not only don’t diminish the functionality of the rifle – but enhance it. Sling swivels are a prime example.
It’s a very individual choice and it depends on your own standards and preferences. A reblued rifle? Here again, no impact on the functionality of the rifle. However, for me, even if I’m using it as a hunting rifle, I don’t want to stare at a reblued rifle in the woods. Most of the time, these rifles can be purchased for much less than an original piece (or at least they should be). Here’s another example. My eyes are no longer very compatible with iron sights. I’m not going to have tap holes put in any of my various Winchester rifles. But… if the right .33WCF came along (that wasn’t reblued) (and was heavily discounted for the tap holes), I’d be interested.
TR said
A deal at a gun show can be final with no recourse. You make your own terms. After the price is set then comes type of payment and guarantee before the money is counted. Items to discuss may include a guarantee to letter, feed and fire, originality, ect. The big question, is the seller is honest?I have seen buyers go back to the seller the same day and get the, “a deal is a deal, we shook”. At a gun show the deal is what you make it, but then it depends on the honesty of the seller! There is no negative feed back or 3 day inspection. I have seen walk-ins sell a gun and walk straight to the door.
Most table holders will let you take it to someone for a opinion, get help if you don’t know. T/R
I know honesty is often lacking among gun jockey’s out there. Decades ago a friend of mine labeled the fellows behind the gun show tables as members of the, “den of thieves.” Over the years, I’ve met many who didn’t fit that description at all, but also many who fit the description perfectly. Having said that, even dishonest dealers can have problem guns and not know it. A good example is a guns that have internal problems such as feeding problems. Most of what we are purchasing are collector items and dealers are not necessarily test firing them or feeding cartridges though them etc. There are many problems that are not visually discernable. When the dealer purchased the gun, he probably didn’t give it more of a look-over than you are giving it standing at his table.
Most of what we are purchasing are collector items and dealers are not necessarily test firing them or feeding cartridges though them etc. steve004 said
VERY few would go to that trouble!
November 7, 2015
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clarence said
Most of what we are purchasing are collector items and dealers are not necessarily test firing them or feeding cartridges though them etc. steve004 said
VERY few would go to that trouble!
I try, funny thing is a few I’ve sold recently have not shot very well for me. New owners didn’t care or took that as a challenge.
Mike
steve004 said
I think this is an example where buying a, “problem gun” makes sense. As a, “collector” I never want a problem gun. But as a shooter and hunter, problem guns can be the perfect choice – depending of course on what the, “problem” is. For example, added sling swivels or extra tap holes – there’s all types of alterations that not only don’t diminish the functionality of the rifle – but enhance it. Sling swivels are a prime example.It’s a very individual choice and it depends on your own standards and preferences. A reblued rifle? Here again, no impact on the functionality of the rifle. However, for me, even if I’m using it as a hunting rifle, I don’t want to stare at a reblued rifle in the woods. Most of the time, these rifles can be purchased for much less than an original piece (or at least they should be). Here’s another example. My eyes are no longer very compatible with iron sights. I’m not going to have tap holes put in any of my various Winchester rifles. But… if the right .33WCF came along (that wasn’t reblued) (and was heavily discounted for the tap holes), I’d be interested.
Top-marked Winchester brls present a special problem for scope mounting because of the way the letters are spread out so far along the brl; that is, if you want to avoid drilling into the lettering, which, when the guns were new, few shooters who wanted a scope worried about. Top-marked Stevens brls present no such problem, due to the condensed size of the markings, & I’ve had a couple of those tapped; done the same on Ballards, which are marked only with the caliber. None of these were high-condition or rare guns, or I wouldn’t have been hunting with them in the first place. But none were reblued, either, for the same reason you stated; a gun with no finish isn’t unpleasant to me in the least, but a hot-blue makes me sick.
Matt H. said
Thanks to all for the great replies, advice, and mindset concerning looking at a rifle to purchase at a show. Make no mistake, I am planning to attend the Cody show first and foremost to browse, drool, and learn as much as I can. I know a lot of this is old hat for most of you, but I look forward to walking the aisles, browsing the tables, and getting an education. Finding a rifle to buy is only icing on the cake if it happens.I have been a Winchester lever action fan since I was a young boy, and only now as I approach 50 years old do I have the time and means to pursue an actual “collection.” I kick myself for starting this late, (the same goes for old Ford highboys)….wish I woulda clued in a long time ago. Nevertheless, I find myself where I am, eager to attend next years Cody show, see the museums, meet some like minded folks, and maybe walk out of there with a piece of history. I think that as I age I’ve become very nostalgic and yearn for times gone by, not really in favor of where the world seems headed. I hope that’s not too deep for the forum, but old lever guns make me feel a connection to those better days. Kinda like wood stoves and chopping firewood.
Have a good night all : )
Matt – let me extend my welcome to you to our community here. It’s exciting to have new collectors enter our field. I too, have been a Winchester lever action fan since I was a young boy. My Dad’s M1886 .33 WCF started it all for me.
I’ve been reading your comments on the prospects of starting collecting now. Like anything, it depends on what makes you happy. I agree that these days, collecting the high-end guns that routinely run in the tens of thousands of dollars is not for us mere mortals. However, there are a lot of quality, no-problem rifles available for realistic dollars. Rick mentioned he often focuses on rifles in 75-80% condition. I have many of those myself (and some with less finish than that) and I find strong satisfaction in owning them. As much as I admire the big caliber model 1886’s, the .33 WCF’s are still the same wonderful M1886 actioned rifles. I enjoy all of mine and they fully qualify as collector items. It’s amusing to me as I have seen some, fancy but, “problem” M1886’s sell recently for very high dollars at the big auctions houses. My .33’s are clean, honest rifles without problems.
TXGunNut said
I try, funny thing is a few I’ve sold recently have not shot very well for me.
Yes, Mike, but you aren’t a pro dealer, in it only for the dough, with maybe dozens of guns in your inventory.
steve004 said
Rick mentioned he often focuses on rifles in 75-80% condition. I have many of those myself (and some with less finish than that) and I find strong satisfaction in owning them.
I find if I purchase guns that are 90% and better I won’t shoot them. My intentions when I started collecting was to shoot them, but as time went on and I acquired better condition guns, they became safe queens.
70-80% guns with honest wear but still collector grade is my comfort zone. The price is better(usually), and I will take them to the range or hunting. I have three guns 98%+ that will never see real sunlight unfortunately.
Rick C
clarence said
steve004 said
I think this is an example where buying a, “problem gun” makes sense. As a, “collector” I never want a problem gun. But as a shooter and hunter, problem guns can be the perfect choice – depending of course on what the, “problem” is. For example, added sling swivels or extra tap holes – there’s all types of alterations that not only don’t diminish the functionality of the rifle – but enhance it. Sling swivels are a prime example.
It’s a very individual choice and it depends on your own standards and preferences. A reblued rifle? Here again, no impact on the functionality of the rifle. However, for me, even if I’m using it as a hunting rifle, I don’t want to stare at a reblued rifle in the woods. Most of the time, these rifles can be purchased for much less than an original piece (or at least they should be). Here’s another example. My eyes are no longer very compatible with iron sights. I’m not going to have tap holes put in any of my various Winchester rifles. But… if the right .33WCF came along (that wasn’t reblued) (and was heavily discounted for the tap holes), I’d be interested.
Top-marked Winchester brls present a special problem for scope mounting because of the way the letters are spread out so far along the brl; that is, if you want to avoid drilling into the lettering, which, when the guns were new, few shooters who wanted a scope worried about. Top-marked Stevens brls present no such problem, due to the condensed size of the markings, & I’ve had a couple of those tapped; done the same on Ballards, which are marked only with the caliber. None of these were high-condition or rare guns, or I wouldn’t have been hunting with them in the first place. But none were reblued, either, for the same reason you stated; a gun with no finish isn’t unpleasant to me in the least, but a hot-blue makes me sick.
Clarence –
I was thinking along the lines of a receiver side-mounted scope. Over the years, I’ve seen a few M1886’s with three or four receiver holes for a scope. A couple were, otherwise, very nice rifles. The asking prices were significantly adjusted for the holes. I was not interested at the time, but as I stated above, with my eyes not liking iron sights, a side mounted scope on an ’86 has some appeal to me. But as you say, it would need to not have a hot reblue job!
70-80% guns with honest wear but still collector grade is my comfort zone. RickC said
We’re looking for the same guns, Rick.
I was thinking along the lines of a receiver side-mounted scope. Over the years, I’ve seen a few M1886’s with three or four receiver holes for a scope. steve004 said
I always think in terms of single shots or bolt-actions. Side-mounted scopes are clumsy; I had a Model 70 with a G&H side-mount, but got rid of it after I’d handled in a while. (Despite the wonderful machine work of the mount.)
But for scope-mounting on a lever-gun, Winchester had a better answer than turning the rcvr into Swiss cheese: their detachable offset scope blocks. Clumsier than a top-mount, but still better than a rcvr mount, I think. Can be found on ebay from time to time.
RickC said
I find if I purchase guns that are 90% and better I won’t shoot them. My intentions when I started collecting was to shoot them, but as time went on and I acquired better condition guns, they became safe queens.
70-80% guns with honest wear but still collector grade is my comfort zone. The price is better(usually), and I will take them to the range or hunting. I have three guns 98%+ that will never see real sunlight unfortunately.
I shoot all my guns regardless of condition. The high end ones just get shot less and in some cases just once. I do have to admit that I have a couple cartridge guns that I have not shot but laziness on my part is my only excuse.
I shoot all my guns regardless of condition. Chuck said
Not shooting per se that might lead to some adverse consequences, it’s the handling, transportation, etc., that are necessary in order to shoot. And anytime you’re shooting at a range with other people milling about (which I never do), unpredictable accidents are possible. Not that you aren’t as aware of all this as I am.
steve004 said
Matt H. said
Thanks to all for the great replies, advice, and mindset concerning looking at a rifle to purchase at a show. Make no mistake, I am planning to attend the Cody show first and foremost to browse, drool, and learn as much as I can. I know a lot of this is old hat for most of you, but I look forward to walking the aisles, browsing the tables, and getting an education. Finding a rifle to buy is only icing on the cake if it happens.
I have been a Winchester lever action fan since I was a young boy, and only now as I approach 50 years old do I have the time and means to pursue an actual “collection.” I kick myself for starting this late, (the same goes for old Ford highboys)….wish I woulda clued in a long time ago. Nevertheless, I find myself where I am, eager to attend next years Cody show, see the museums, meet some like minded folks, and maybe walk out of there with a piece of history. I think that as I age I’ve become very nostalgic and yearn for times gone by, not really in favor of where the world seems headed. I hope that’s not too deep for the forum, but old lever guns make me feel a connection to those better days. Kinda like wood stoves and chopping firewood.
Have a good night all : )
Matt – let me extend my welcome to you to our community here. It’s exciting to have new collectors enter our field. I too, have been a Winchester lever action fan since I was a young boy. My Dad’s M1886 .33 WCF started it all for me.
I’ve been reading your comments on the prospects of starting collecting now. Like anything, it depends on what makes you happy. I agree that these days, collecting the high-end guns that routinely run in the tens of thousands of dollars is not for us mere mortals. However, there are a lot of quality, no-problem rifles available for realistic dollars. Rick mentioned he often focuses on rifles in 75-80% condition. I have many of those myself (and some with less finish than that) and I find strong satisfaction in owning them. As much as I admire the big caliber model 1886’s, the .33 WCF’s are still the same wonderful M1886 actioned rifles. I enjoy all of mine and they fully qualify as collector items. It’s amusing to me as I have seen some, fancy but, “problem” M1886’s sell recently for very high dollars at the big auctions houses. My .33’s are clean, honest rifles without problems.
Steve, thanks a bunch for the sage advice on collecting, and I am right there with you, Rick, and Clarence in that I am not searching for anything over that 70-80% range as I fully intend to use and shoot whatever I have in my small collection. I did chicken out this November though when I left my favorite 1894 in the gun safe and went to Montana with a modern bolt action. As you’d expect, I tracked a nice buck in a snowstorm and bumped him out of his bed. He stopped on the opposite side of a small draw about 30 yards from me and stood broadside for 45 seconds. I am still kicking myself for leaving the lever action at home and it won’t happen again. For me, the best part of owning these old guns is to use them.
And funny you mention the 1886, as procuring one of them (likely in 33wcf) is high on my priority list. After reading through so many threads here about auction houses, Gunbroker, and other such places, I’ll admit I feel somewhat nervous about making a mistake when purchasing. At this point unless I was buying a rifle from one of you fellas I sure wouldn’t feel very good about it! I hope to make it to Cody this year, and with some counsel from you trusted sources, maybe I can keep adding to this collection!
I do really enjoy this community, and I’ve only been a member for just under a year…looking forward to many more!
Matt H. said For me, the best part of owning these old guns is to use them.
My feelings exactly. Except you wouldn’t have found me out in that snowstorm!
Anyone who trades collector grade Winchesters has to be able to stand behind what he offers. Once this reputation has been established, trust is an invaluable asset. But, it only takes one misrepresentation for a fifty year reputation to evaporate instantly.
[email protected] said
Anyone who trades collector grade Winchesters has to be able to stand behind what he offers. Once this reputation has been established, trust is an invaluable asset. But, it only takes one misrepresentation for a fifty year reputation to evaporate instantly.
Wish someone had told that to Herschel Chaddick, once the most well known Parker dealer in the country, who also handled many high grade Winchesters. I bought a 52 Sporting Model from him at a show about 50 yrs ago, which, after running a patch through the bore, I discovered had a very noticeable enlargement of the bore half way down the brl. I’m sure considering the 50 odd guns he brought to every show, Chaddick knew nothing about it, but when I told him what I’d found, he refused to take it back & even accused me of causing it! Of course I never shot it after discovering the problem. Had to have a lawyer write him a letter before he reluctantly agreed to accept the return.
Like I said, that was 50 yrs ago when I was as ignorant as those I’d heard say that such an enlargement was death to good accuracy. In a .22 RF, there’s a good chance it would have made no difference at all. If Chaddick had had any brains at all, he’d have told me to shoot it before returning it, in which case I might well still have it. Same gun today wouldn’t be priced under 5 Gs.
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