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I’m curious if anyone who keep surveys on 1897s knows about when the takedown riot guns started to become more common than solid frames and what the approximate ratio was of solid to takedown models prior to WW1? Also curious if there are any documented military issue takedown riot guns during WW1. I have seen a reference to a small Navy contract. does anyone have more info or serial number range on these?
Bert Hartman can probably give you the ratio of solid frame guns to takedown models prior to WWI.
The small Navy contract you referenced was a mid 1917 contract. There were also a couple of other contracts for about a dozen takedown riot guns for the Navy and Signal Corps that were made in mid 1917 and late 1917. I would expect all of these guns to be in the 660,000 to 675,000 serial number range.
Thanks. One reason I asked is because I saw a US-marked takedown riot that sold at RIA a few years ago, but I am often dubious of guns that sell for big money there. I have an early 1917 takedown riot SN 648648 with no indication of military or police service.
Based on the current results of my survey, I have (267) Model 1897 Riot Guns documented through the end of the year 1919. Of that number, (44) of them are Take Downs, but only (18) of the TDs are pre-1917 production guns. The Take Down Riot Guns began to become more common in the year 1917, but they did not become the majority (more common) than the Sold frame Riot Guns until 1922. The final batch of Solid frame Riot Guns were manufactured in late 1930 through the Summer of 1931.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
[email protected] said
Thanks. One reason I asked is because I saw a US-marked takedown riot that sold at RIA a few years ago, but I am often dubious of guns that sell for big money there. I have an early 1917 takedown riot SN 648648 with no indication of military or police service.
Can you send me pictures of the slide bar marking and the barrel address marking? Based on my survey, the slide bar should have the Type 4 marking, and the barrel most likely has a Type 7 marking.
Bert – [email protected]
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks Bert. Exactly what I was looking for. Photos sent.
FWIW, here’s the link to the auction gun I mentioned:
Tom D said
The martial markings on the auction gun are fake.
I concur… somebody overpaid for that gun.
It is an authentic Take Down Riot Gun, but it was a commercial market gun. It is in the middle of a (20) gun batch of TD Riot Guns manufactured in early 1917.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
A lot later (like 24 years later) but my 1941 Riot Gun is a takedown gun.
It was acquired by the Ohio State Army National Guard; and more then likely was loaned to the Ohio State Prisons System until it was sold as “excess military equipment” in 1976.
The last batch of Solid Frame Model 97 Riot Guns were manufactured in March & April 1931, and they were all in the 865660 – 866851 serial number range.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
The last batch of Solid Frame Model 97 Riot Guns were manufactured in March & April 1931, and they were all in the 865660 – 866851 serial number range.Bert
Hi Bert, I found this post while researching model 97 riot guns. I just acquired serial E 865796 solid frame 20″ riot CYL marked barrel — pretty nice condition. Noticed this gun is in the range you listed above as the last of the solid frame riot guns. I see on this one, which I have not come across before, the barrel is marked on the left side with a large all caps MADE IN U.S.A. before the pat rollmarks followed by the same font and size 12 GA. Slide bar is marked with Model 97 — no space.
Also, I was under the impression serial 865796 would be 1938/39 but you have it in the range for 1931 above.
Let me know if I can Email you a few pics to have a look at and document for your survey.
Best,
Chris
Christopher Bala said
Bert H. said
The last batch of Solid Frame Model 97 Riot Guns were manufactured in March & April 1931, and they were all in the 865660 – 866851 serial number range.
Bert
Hi Bert, I found this post while researching model 97 riot guns. I just acquired serial E 865796 solid frame 20″ riot CYL marked barrel — pretty nice condition. Noticed this gun is in the range you listed above as the last of the solid frame riot guns. I see on this one, which I have not come across before, the barrel is marked on the left side with a large all caps MADE IN U.S.A. before the pat rollmarks followed by the same font and size 12 GA. Slide bar is marked with Model 97 — no space.
Also, I was under the impression serial 865796 would be 1938/39 but you have it in the range for 1931 above.
Let me know if I can Email you a few pics to have a look at and document for your survey.
Best,
Chris
Hello Chris,
The vast majority of the date of manufacture lists found on the internet for the Winchester Model 1897/97 are grossly inaccurate. Model 97 S/N 865796 was manufactured in March 1931 per the original Winchester factory records.
Please send the pictures of your Riot Gun to me via email – [email protected]
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Christopher Bala said
Bert H. said
The last batch of Solid Frame Model 97 Riot Guns were manufactured in March & April 1931, and they were all in the 865660 – 866851 serial number range.
Bert
Hi Bert, I found this post while researching model 97 riot guns. I just acquired serial E 865796 solid frame 20″ riot CYL marked barrel — pretty nice condition. Noticed this gun is in the range you listed above as the last of the solid frame riot guns. I see on this one, which I have not come across before, the barrel is marked on the left side with a large all caps MADE IN U.S.A. before the pat rollmarks followed by the same font and size 12 GA. Slide bar is marked with Model 97 — no space.
Also, I was under the impression serial 865796 would be 1938/39 but you have it in the range for 1931 above.
Let me know if I can Email you a few pics to have a look at and document for your survey.
Best,
Chris
Hello Chris,
The vast majority of the date of manufacture lists found on the internet for the Winchester Model 1897/97 are grossly inaccurate. Model 97 S/N 865796 was manufactured in March 1931 per the original Winchester factory records.
Please send the pictures of your Riot Gun to me via email – [email protected]
Bert
Thanks for the details Bert, Email sent.
Chris
Chris, go back to the Home page and look at the top. There is a tab that says Resources. Click on it and go to When Was My Gun Made. The info you will get is from the original Winchester Factory records. Not someone’s best guess.
Thanks Chuck, I went there and didn’t see 1897/97 listed to do a lookup…
Chris
Open the drop down list and you will then select 1893 & 1897. Then add the serial number.
Chuck said
Open the drop down list and you will then select 1893 & 1897. Then add the serial number.
My bad, I glazed over, and right by the 1893…
Thanks Chuck.
Chris
Christopher Bala said
Thanks Chuck, I went there and didn’t see 1897/97 listed to do a lookup…Chris
Because the Model 1897 was a continuation of the Model 1893, I grouped them together. The same situation exists for the Model 1887 & Model 1901.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
I just bought a Winchester 97 solid frame 12ga 30″ full choke barrel w/ Weaver choke on it. My question is the serial number reads 989— with an E forward of the serial number. Does it mean anything? Overall condition is 80% +
Forestgrump said
I just bought a Winchester 97 solid frame 12ga 30″ full choke barrel w/ Weaver choke on it. My question is the serial number reads 989— with an E forward of the serial number. Does it mean anything? Overall condition is 80% +
How many digits is the serial number? If it is 6-digits long and the first three are “989” it cannot be a solid frame. Additionally, the “E” should be stamped directly above the serial number.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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