Log In
Members
Home
Add Reply
Add Topic
Hello everyone,
I’ve been reading through the forums for a few weeks since I found this website. It’s been very informative. I’m only a guest currently so I need to work on uploading pictures to an image host. Recently, I won an auction for a model 1897.
It is a solid frame & the receiver dates to 1917, according to WACA polishing room records. The serial number is E 651932. It appears to have a beautifully preserved factory blue finish. The top of the receiver bares the circled ‘WP’ proof mark. There are no other factory or martial markings that I can see.
The stock is a WWI semi pistol grip style with a thin wrist and high comb. No checkering or relief cuts. There are vertical rack numbers along the spine of the stock above the butt plate. They appear to be burned in, as opposed to painted on. The butt plate is the hard rubber style with the Winchester Repeating Arms logo in the center, and windows peak top.
The slide bar has the markings “Model 1897 –Winchester– Trade Mark Reg. In U.S. Pat. Off.” & the foregrip wood is in good shape, matching the stock in species and color. It does not have any fasteners or screws in the wood.
As for the barrel, it measures 20 and ~ 1/8 inches from the bolt face to the muzzle. It has a brass low profile bead sight that is set back exactly 0.5 inches from the muzzle. From what I’ve read, the underside of the sight (looking from inside the barrel) also appears appropriate. I have no formal gunsmith training but as best I can tell, or want to believe, the barrel hasn’t been cut. The bore is bright and shiny, and appears to be a cylinder choke with no restriction. The relief cut in the barrel for the tube clamp screw appears factory done.
The confusion for me comes from the lack of markings on the barrel. If I understand what some very knowledgeable forum members and mods have posted, then this receiver lies within the serial range of WWI contract guns. And should display on the barrel a proof mark of some type, and ‘CYL’ on the left hand side. I’ve field stripped, cleaned and re-oiled the gun, but found no markings on the underside of the barrel either. Not even inspection stamps. It has left me scratching my head since the bluing on the tube and barrel, similarly to the receiver – Is in excellent condition and appears contemporaneous to the rest of the gun. There is minor patina in a few small places, but a keen eye and a bright flashlight are needed to see it. Overall in my opinion the shotgun is in great condition.
I’ve yet to get it out to the range, but the action works flawlessly and passes all the function safety tests outlined in the Ordnance Maintenance Manual TM 9-1285.
Could anyone lend any potential insights as to the provenance of the barrel? It was difficult to tell from the auction photos if there were barrel markings, so I did roll the dice hoping a faded CYL could be seen in person. My thought process being if someone were to be attempting a fake – a trench gun is the configuration most emulated. Is it possible the barrel is an armory replacement or something of the like?
Thank you!
HistoryHunter
Can you send pictures of the gun and barrel to me via email?
Bert – [email protected]
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
After emailing with Bert, it has been determined that the barrel has been buffed, polished and re-blued (likely hot salt bluing). This probably explains the lack of CYL mark visible. The receiver frame is believed to have been re-blued as well. Although the receiver color to me, does seem to more closely match the look of the original finish. Since comparing it with pictures of some early Winchester revolvers. It’s difficult to capture the nuances on camera, however, there is a darker hue on the barrel and tube as Bert pointed out.
The stock has a type of more modern varnish on it. This is readily apparent and I’m hopeful 0000 steel wool and elbow grease will get the majority of it off. I’ve had very good results in the past using pure tung oil, specifically from the real milk paint company.
Thankfully the refinish job is reasonably good. I was taken aback the first time I saw it at my FFL, since it presents differently in person and varying light. Going by the rack numbers on the stock being congruent to the gun’s provenance, I have a little conjecture that perhaps it was refinished in house by a gun smith for a police department. While I agree it has been re-blued, it doesn’t look like something that was done very recently. This of course is total hypothesis.
The good news is that my hopes / suspicions of the guns original configuration were confirmed to be correct. Bert was able to tell me per the factory records, this 108 year old model 1897 is an original riot gun. Manufactured May 5, 1917. Roughly a year and a half prior to the close of WWI. What a cool piece of history!
November 7, 2015
Offline
I like your theory about a refinish by a department armorer, certainly makes sense. I wouldn’t bother restoring the wood to a more original type finish, I think the current finish is part of the gun’s history.
Mike
Thanks! I know there may be a small dose of wishful thinking in there. But wondering where a historical firearm has been & the things it may have seen is part of the fun.
As for the wood, the more I handle the gun, the more it makes me smile. I’ve been thinking about it and I’m coming around to the idea of leaving it be. I like appreciating the gun’s history as best I can for what it is. Rather than try to make it something it isn’t. Don’t buy an excuse gun, as I’ve read another well known member write 
Also, it’s less work for me (which is always nice). And funnily enough, when I brought up the idea of refinishing the stock to my wife she said “I don’t know, I think it looks good shiny”.
I’m very happy with this and am itching to get it out to the range for some action.
November 7, 2015
Offline
I’ve always enjoyed shooting a round or two of skeet with a riot gun a few times a year. High house station one and low house station seven are a lot of fun with a riot gun but the others take a bit of work, helps to get on the bird ASAP. Good familiarization for the social equipment I keep around. For some departments and corrections facilities the appearance of a well-maintained riot gun was important and the rack number hints that it was a working gun at least part of its life. I’ve seen the abuse riot guns take in patrol vehicles, good to see one that has been taken care of!
Mike
It’s been too long since I’ve been able to get out and shoot a few rounds of skeet. I now have a little one so that will probably delay it a bit more. But I appreciate the tips! I’ll definitely be starting with those to try to get my chops back up somewhat. I can see how the other positions would take some practice to be proficient with a 20” barrel. At those greater distances being on ASAP and leading the bird is key.
Truth be told I’ve never tried with a riot barrel. I think in the past I was always using my 870 with a 26″ barrel. Many years ago I can recall doing my hunter safety course, and being so proud of myself catching two and a half birds on qualifying from low house station three. Going back now for more of a challenge when I can with the riot gun should be a good time.
I was thinking along the same lines. I can’t for certain, say that the stock set is original to the receiver. But since Bert was able to provide the factory records as proof of it be a riot gun from the start. I have more confidence now in that train of thought. In a way, it’s a meeting of hopes and reality come to fruition. I agree it’s super cool to find one in the condition it’s in (refinish withstanding). And I’m proud to be the caretaker of this firearm, and keep it’s legacy going!
1 Guest(s)
