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November 19, 2006
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Other than Burgess shotguns, I’ve never been much of shotgun guy.
I’ve been aware of the Winchester M21 going way back. I think it was in 1980 or 1981 I wrote Winchester with a proposal that they make up a limited number of M21’s in .45-70. They wrote back and wanted to know if I had a prototype. I didn’t – so that was the end of that.
I’ve been aware of Grand American’s all along. I’ve admired them but never thought much more about them. Today, when looking through the upcoming Morphy auction offerings, I spotted this one. It occurred to me how much I would really like this shotgun. It seems to me this one has a lot going for it. The minimum end of the estimate looked darn favorable. I haven’t followed prices on these, but I suspect this one will sell quite far into the estimate range?
December 25, 2016
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Well as of this post it’s @ 14 K and 17 days to go. That 21 will go at or above their estimate range Prices on double guns have taken a hit. That’s a special gun. IMO it will not go cheaply (relatively) your average M21’s have taken a hit value wise, this is far from your average gun. Thanks for sharing, no worries I won’t be bidding.
April 15, 2005
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Steve,
Shame on YOU !!
I have examples of all four of the JMB designed & patented Winchester shotguns (1887, 1893, 1897, and Single Shot (high-wall). In fact, I have a total of (15) JMB Winchester shotguns. 
In regard to the Model 21, Winchester did in fact make at least two of them in 405 WCF.
Bert – JMB disciple
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
January 20, 2023
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Bert,
Isn’t at least one of them in Cody?
It is a testament to the design of the Model 21 that conversion of the action to .405 WCF did not require any supplemental bolting, e.g. a doll’s head top bolt or Greener cross bolts.
My understanding of one reason why the prototype was never developed into a production model was regulating the barrels was extraordinarily difficult and time consuming. When you consider that the barrels of the Model 21 are joined by a long steel dovetail, the traditional English method of regulating a double rifle would be impossible to employ. i think it was done like this by Holland, Rigby et al.:
The barrels were wired together with soft steel wire and tapered wedges were driven between the barrels, adjusted as test firing proceeded until the pair of target holes were coincident at 50 yards. Then their relative positions were made permanent with silver solder.
I can only imagine how much fun this was with a .577 Nitro Express.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
September 19, 2014
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For all who follow shotguns. The 28 ga and the .410 bore tend to bring more bidding activity. A two barrel set with each of those two chamberings in one offering about guarantees another facet to increase the bid amounts. I expect the winning bid to be at or above the top of the bid range. My opinion at least.
Tim
January 20, 2023
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I had a good friend who was an avid Winchester collector, as was his father. He owned and shot several Model 21s in various styles until one day, for whatever reason, he ordered a Grand American. He was very happy with it when it came and would show it to fellow enthusiasts but it spent 99% of its life in a fireproof, controlled atmosphere safe, guarded by two extra-large, extremely suspicious Dobermans. They seemed to enjoy their work and got more out the gun’s presence than my friend did. Ultimately, he sold the gun at about break-even and moved on. The dogs were given to a Doberman enthusiast.
I think a .410 Model 21 is something like a two-headed toad. Interesting until the novelty wears off but essentially useless. A 28 gauge would be nice, but not for a silly price.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
February 17, 2022
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steve004 said
Other than Burgess shotguns, I’ve never been much of shotgun guy.
I’ve been aware of the Winchester M21 going way back. I think it was in 1980 or 1981 I wrote Winchester with a proposal that they make up a limited number of M21’s in .45-70. They wrote back and wanted to know if I had a prototype. I didn’t – so that was the end of that.
I’ve been aware of Grand American’s all along. I’ve admired them but never thought much more about them. Today, when looking through the upcoming Morphy auction offerings, I spotted this one. It occurred to me how much I would really like this shotgun. It seems to me this one has a lot going for it. The minimum end of the estimate looked darn favorable. I haven’t followed prices on these, but I suspect this one will sell quite far into the estimate range?
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_C__GRAND_AMERICAN_WINCHESTER_MODEL_21_SIDE_BY_SID-LOT643212.aspx?inventoryid=643212&seo=_C__GRAND_AMERICAN_WINCHESTER_MODEL_21_SIDE_BY_SID
Steve, I believe I saw a 21 in 45-70 at an auction couple years ago. My mind tells me it was from the Peter Murray collection. I just can’t seem to find it now. I’ll keep digging.
November 19, 2006
Online
oldcrankyyankee said
steve004 said
Other than Burgess shotguns, I’ve never been much of shotgun guy.
I’ve been aware of the Winchester M21 going way back. I think it was in 1980 or 1981 I wrote Winchester with a proposal that they make up a limited number of M21’s in .45-70. They wrote back and wanted to know if I had a prototype. I didn’t – so that was the end of that.
I’ve been aware of Grand American’s all along. I’ve admired them but never thought much more about them. Today, when looking through the upcoming Morphy auction offerings, I spotted this one. It occurred to me how much I would really like this shotgun. It seems to me this one has a lot going for it. The minimum end of the estimate looked darn favorable. I haven’t followed prices on these, but I suspect this one will sell quite far into the estimate range?
https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_C__GRAND_AMERICAN_WINCHESTER_MODEL_21_SIDE_BY_SID-LOT643212.aspx?inventoryid=643212&seo=_C__GRAND_AMERICAN_WINCHESTER_MODEL_21_SIDE_BY_SID
Steve, I believe I saw a 21 in 45-70 at an auction couple years ago. My mind tells me it was from the Peter Murray collection. I just can’t seem to find it now. I’ll keep digging.
Thanks Tom – that also brings back a memory for me of seeing one. It was probably the one you are referring to. I suppose you would have gone for it had it been a .45-90 
November 19, 2006
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Zebulon said
I had a good friend who was an avid Winchester collector, as was his father. He owned and shot several Model 21s in various styles until one day, for whatever reason, he ordered a Grand American. He was very happy with it when it came and would show it to fellow enthusiasts but it spent 99% of its life in a fireproof, controlled atmosphere safe, guarded by two extra-large, extremely suspicious Dobermans. They seemed to enjoy their work and got more out the gun’s presence than my friend did. Ultimately, he sold the gun at about break-even and moved on. The dogs were given to a Doberman enthusiast.
I think a .410 Model 21 is something like a two-headed toad. Interesting until the novelty wears off but essentially useless. A 28 gauge would be nice, but not for a silly price.
Bill –
Your points are quite valid. Were I to acquire this M21, like your friend’s, it would sit in a controlled atmosphere safe and rarely come out. The only difference is I wouldn’t add the Dobermans. But yes, the novelty would surely wear off.
It’s amusing as when I started this topic, I projected that at least you, would jump in with great enthusiasm. The fact that you’re not, helps me move on.
Now, one in a .405 or .45-70….
November 7, 2015
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About as useful as Lone Watie’s hard candy. Apparently someone got tired of looking at it, I imagine it was fun for awhile.
Mike
January 20, 2023
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This thread pretty much sums up my attitude toward engraved and inlaid rifles and shotguns.
I really like to own and use high grade rifles and shotguns – colorful Walnut or Maple and extensive panels of checkering, on mechanically excellent and well-finished steel.
Modest amount of well-executed, traditional scroll hand engraving, like that found on a Grade 1 Browning Auto-Five or Superposed, is o.k.
Anything more than that (I can’t afford it) has to be very intricate and close English rose-and-scroll, so small in scale it requires a glass to fully appreciate, as seen on vintage Holland doubles. Few craftsmen alive today can do it and it is very expensive. It is not garish or overwhelming. It does hold lubrication and protects bluing. It should never be re-finished.
I think inlays and wire are offensive. Period.
I prefer blued or case colored receivers to “coin finished” (plated) receivers.
Handguns are another matter, for some reason, although I don’t own or aspire to engraved specimens. Unblemished nickel plate I like but not for carry.
My take, as Lou would say.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
April 15, 2005
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Bill,
I have just one factory engraved gun… a 1962 production Browning Auto-5 Light Twenty.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
August 27, 2014
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No way to prove if this is a factory engraved Buffalo Newton Rifle, but I like to think it might be. It does feature an enhanced checkering pattern. Lawrence Wales indicated that it’s an interesting gun
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
January 20, 2023
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Bert H. said
Bill,
I have just one factory engraved gun… a 1962 production Browning Auto-5 Light Twenty.Bert
Bert, as you know, we share an enthusiasm for those guns. Mine is a 1955 production Light Twelve in 98-99% condition. Horn buttplate, machine blued receiver, rust blued plain FC 28″ barrel.
I like the gun so much I bought a NOS Miroku 26″ VR barrel with Invector Plus tubes. I don’t hunt ducks so don’t use steel shot but the backbored shorter barrel is nice for doves.
Browning knows when to stop with engraving, at least on field grade guns. I really don’t care for the Pigeon, Pointer, Diana, or Midas Grades of the Superposed. A 20 gauge Grade 1 Lightning suits me.
The Auto-Five shown with pheasant and Chessie is no longer mine. A 1960 Standard (blue trigger) Twelve shown with a 30″ Invector Plus VR Miroku barrel. It came to me in that form from a local pawn shop. Now lives in Ohio with a fine young waterfowl hunter. The dog is his.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
January 20, 2023
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And while I was in the album: a Browning BSS Sporter 12 gauge 26: IC/MOD.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
April 15, 2005
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Bill,
Very nice… Browning has always exceled with their JMB designed shotguns and Auto-pistols.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
January 20, 2023
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And Ted, that is one handsome Newton. I’m no expert on the subject but the engraving looks similar to what Ive seen in other illustrations of Buffalo Newton rifles.
I didn’t notice the caliber. Is it a 256?
Bill
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
December 25, 2016
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Well Bert, Now we have two things in common, I too own but one factory engraved gun. My old Elsie SBT is engraved, I too lean toward the older engraved guns perhaps lightly embellished is what I like. The auction has almost two weeks left, glad the house makes it easy to follow it. Has it ever been fired? Will it ever be fired? Too pretty to use the darn thing, I’m afraid. Well outside and my price tolerance for guns as well. IMO M21 prices are depressed, and will become more depressed in the coming years. This gun is quite unique and is evaluated on it’s own merits which are extensive. It will be an interesting auction to watch.
August 27, 2014
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Zebulon said
And Ted, that is one handsome Newton. I’m no expert on the subject but the engraving looks similar to what Ive seen in other illustrations of Buffalo Newton rifles.
I didn’t notice the caliber. Is it a 256?
Bill
Thanks Bill
Yes, it’s a 256
Sitting in the rack at a LGS about a decade ago
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
November 19, 2006
Online
Zebulon said
This thread pretty much sums up my attitude toward engraved and inlaid rifles and shotguns.
I really like to own and use high grade rifles and shotguns – colorful Walnut or Maple and extensive panels of checkering, on mechanically excellent and well-finished steel.
Modest amount of well-executed, traditional scroll hand engraving, like that found on a Grade 1 Browning Auto-Five or Superposed, is o.k.
Anything more than that (I can’t afford it) has to be very intricate and close English rose-and-scroll, so small in scale it requires a glass to fully appreciate, as seen on vintage Holland doubles. Few craftsmen alive today can do it and it is very expensive. It is not garish or overwhelming. It does hold lubrication and protects bluing. It should never be re-finished.
I think inlays and wire are offensive. Period.
I prefer blued or case colored receivers to “coin finished” (plated) receivers.
Handguns are another matter, for some reason, although I don’t own or aspire to engraved specimens. Unblemished nickel plate I like but not for carry.
My take, as Lou would say.
The engraver for Burgess is long departed:
Bill – is this the kind of engraving you were referring to? This was done at Lancaster in England when they built this rifle:
