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What is the Difference Between RCBS JKT 18806 and RCBS RN 18805 44-40 Dies ?
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May 18, 2021 - 10:21 pm
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 What is the difference between RCBS 18806 JKT and RCBS  18805 RN 44-40 dies.One I understand is for jacketed bullets and the other lead,but would it make any difference to load lead bullets in the 18806 die or JKT bullets in the 18805 die?Why two different dies?

 

 Neither of these dies  are the RCBS Cowboy dies, 18851.Smile Which is something else again.Suppose to have more tolerance for loading cast bullets,so I am told.Smile

 

 Been thinking of getting a 44-40 and would  be using JKT  bullets.So wondering if there would be any real difference in the 18805 and 18806 RCBS dies?It seems the 18805 dies are easier to get.Smile

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May 19, 2021 - 12:40 am
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If I am not mistaken the difference is in the bullet seating stem.  Other than that, I think the die bodies are the same.  If you change to a lead bullet later, you may need to get the stem for that bullet and put in the box with your dies.  Or try the bullet seater you have and see if it works satisfactorily.

Tim

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May 19, 2021 - 9:59 am
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 Yes, it is the seating die that is different.From a post on another site .I was told the 18805 was for lead,Hornady,Speer and Sierra jacketed bullets .The 18806 was for Remington jacketed bullets.

  I wonder what was so different in the Remington jacketed bullets that they needed a different seating die?

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May 19, 2021 - 1:27 pm
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A seating stem that is machined to closely match the profile of the bullet’s meplat will aid in aligning the bullet for a straight start into the case, avoiding damage to the case neck. If I had to guess I’d say the 18805 seating stem accommodates bullets with flat meplats.

 

Mike

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May 19, 2021 - 8:12 pm
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 Been looking at pictures of the Remington and Winchester manufactured jacketed 44 40 bullets.Cannot seem to see any different in them.I wonder if the 18806 needs to be used with the Winchester made jacketed bullets as well the Remington bullets?

 

 Thought about sending an e mail to RCBS ,but their site says up to three weeks for an answer.

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May 19, 2021 - 8:47 pm
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  My mistake, it is up to 10 days for a reply not three weeksEmbarassed.Sent a message .Will see what RCBS has to say on the subject.Smile

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May 19, 2021 - 8:48 pm
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 I’ve been using Remington (44/40-200 JSP) from Midway 578-01-024. They are flat point .427″ with crimp channel and work fine in 92’s, 73’s, and single actions. Been using them for 20+ years in common Lee dies. The same dies I loaded cast in Winchester bullet molds without any adjustment.  T/R

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May 20, 2021 - 2:21 am
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I figure RCBS should include both seating stems and let the user decide which works best. I thought my RCBS .357 die set had both but apparently I was mistaken or the RN stem got dislocated during the last 40 or so years. Choosing a seating stem before you even start loading is a bit risky. If both sets of dies are available and both seating stems are available a la carte it’s just a matter of checking the prices and buying accordingly. When sizing and seating bullets I’ve had pretty good luck with a flat stem face for most bullets. I’ve read of loaders modifying a stem by grinding it flat or building it up with JB Weld but never seen the need. A generous radius on the base of a bullet would accomplish nearly the same thing. I hate ruining cases on the WCF carbine cartridges so I’d be inclined to use a round seating die for a round bullet if I was loading one. 

FWIW my RCBS Cowboy dies for the 32-20 and 38-40 both appear to have a seating stem best suited for a flat meplat and my moulds all drop flat meplat bullets but I still manage to mangle a case now and then.

Mike

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May 20, 2021 - 12:39 pm
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Mike and others,  Since I load for my .44 Mag and specials as well as the .44 WCF (.44-40) I have and use a selection of seating stems as needed by the particular bullet nose shape, etc.  But the round nose stem seats about anything i personally load from my own castings and jacketed bullets (usually Hornady) for the .44 WCF.  I do change to the true flat nose for the Keith type bullets in my .44 Mag though.  And while I strive mightily to be very careful, I do occasionally wrinkle a piece of brass!  i apply a rather generous flare to help avoid that.  My loading for the “pistol” calibers for the 1873 and 1892 is limited to the .44 WCF and .25 WCF only though.  I understand the .38 WCF is far more taxing.  At times you just have to pay off the reloading imps!  Tim

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May 21, 2021 - 4:23 pm
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 Okay,heard back from RCBS.They say the 18806 is for use with jacketed bullets and the 18805 is more for use with lead bullets.So for jacketed bullets, I should get the 18806.

 

 Now I found an old RCBS Catalogue from 2013.It states that the 18806 was for use with  Remington bullets only.Has something changed since 2013?Guess one will have  to go with what RCBS is saying in an e mail in 2021.Smile

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May 21, 2021 - 5:53 pm
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Interesting. I remember when you could call RCBS, they had some really good people to answer questions like this and help with replacement parts. They even sent me some extra decapping pins gratis when my buddy stole my last spare! Good people.

 

Mike

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May 22, 2021 - 8:04 pm
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 Been looking around at the different dia. of the 44-40 jacketed bullets available.It appears Winchester and Remington are .426,Campro .427 and Speer,Sierra and Hornady .429.

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May 23, 2021 - 10:15 pm
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 Well had an another e mail from RCBS.Had sent the information about what was said about the 44-40 dies in the 2013 catalogue.They said they would check into it and get back to me.Smile

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May 25, 2021 - 7:25 pm
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 Okay, final word from RCBS.The 18806 die set is for use with all bullets of .426 dia,Remington,Winchester,cast etc.The 18805 die is for use with all bullets larger than .426,Speer,Hornady,Nosler,cast etc.Smile

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May 26, 2021 - 12:56 am
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28 gauge said
 Okay, final word from RCBS.The 18806 die set is for use with all bullets of .426 dia,Remington,Winchester,cast etc.The 18805 die is for use with all bullets larger than .426,Speer,Hornady,Nosler,cast etc.Smile  

Sounds like a difference in sizing dies, not seating dies. Diameter sounds a bit small as well. I still think RCBS has great customer service. 

 

Mike

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May 26, 2021 - 5:53 pm
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Slight highjack here.  I recently contacted Ruger about some parts.  To my surprise they are sending me both for free.  That is good customer service.

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May 26, 2021 - 8:04 pm
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TXGunNut said

Sounds like a difference in sizing dies, not seating dies. Diameter sounds a bit small as well. I still think RCBS has great customer service. 

 

Mike  

 I agree with you on both counts .Mike.Would appear the sizing die is different on the 18806 to allow for the smaller dia. bullet.Good of the person I e mailed to check things out after I told them about what was printed in one of their catalogues.

 

 It appears loading for the 44-40 will be much different than any other cartridges I have loaded for.

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May 26, 2021 - 8:06 pm
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Chuck said
Slight highjack here.  I recently contacted Ruger about some parts.  To my surprise they are sending me both for free.  That is good customer service.  

 Hjghjack away,Chuck.As long as everyone is enjoying themselves,thats all that matters.:)Have learned many an interesting thing from hijacked posts.Smile

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28 gauge said
 Okay,heard back from RCBS.They say the 18806 is for use with jacketed bullets and the 18805 is more for use with lead bullets.So for jacketed bullets, I should get the 18806.

 

 Now I found an old RCBS Catalogue from 2013.It states that the 18806 was for use with  Remington bullets only.Has something changed since 2013?Guess one will have  to go with what RCBS is saying in an e mail in 2021.Smile  

RCBS JKT = Jacketed
RCBS RN = Lead Round Nose
RCBS Cowboy = Lead Round Nose

1. JKT = I am only assuming here but the JKT is probably for the smaller diameter Winchester and Remington JSP bullets. The case necks need to be resized smaller than the “Cowboy” or lead bullet dies because the bullet diameter is more narrow, .4255″ to .426″ for these two JSP bullets.

2. RN = I am assuming that these dies are catered towards the lead “Magma” designed bullets sized .427″

3. Cowboy = More than likely these dies are cut to seat the larger .430 lead bullets.

This would include different sizes in the resizing die and crimp dies (crimping method used…ie roll crimp vs “U” shaped roll crimp) as well as maybe different designs in the seating plug. If the incorrect dies are used when reloading the smaller diameter bullets, neck retention will be poor, the “U” shaped crimp alone is not sufficient and the bullet can telescope down into the case when loaded into the mag tube from the pressure from the magtube spring.

Using bullets without a crimp grove is a third issue. Bullets like the Lyman 427098 don’t have a crimp grove. These bullets were used with full case loads of black powder and the bullet sat on top of the powder charge, preventing (telescoping). Using these bullets with smokeless powder can be a problem if neck retention is not attended to. Modern Winchester JSP factory ammunition incorporate a canular applied to the case just below the bullet. This keeps the bullet in place, from telescoping down into the case. Winchester and Magteck lead bullets are swaged and do not have a crimp grove. This is why there is the canular below the bullet on these as well.

When using such bullets without a crimp grove, the Redding 44-40 Profile Crimp is a must IMO!

There is more to keeping the bullet in place other than just a crimp… neck retention is a must!

This link might help
https://sites.google.com/view/44winchester/handloading/redding-profile-crimp-die

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July 8, 2021 - 12:44 pm
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Yes, proper neck tension is important. Not enough and a proper crimp won’t hold and it may cause feeding issues with tight chamber necks. Too much and a soft lead bullet can be deformed or resized. It can be a struggle.

 

Mike

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