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I have a 1894 rifle 38-55 that I am trying to get accurate enough to hunt the Vermont deer season again. I know the provenance back to the original owner when new. The s/n using the CFA data shows 1905 production. Gun is a takedown model with a fancy grade of wood. I would judge the rifling to be fair. I have seen worse shoot good. At 50 yds it might shoot a 4 inch group and then next a foot high and a foot right. I am using 240 gr bullets pulled from HSM cowboy loads. They are .380 diameter. Using 27gr 3031 powder. Using Starline 2.125 length brass. None of the bullets tumble. Yes, I have 72 years old eyes and don’t see open sighs that well anymore but I shoot my other guns with open sights better. I have tried several other load combinations and they were worse. Winchester factory ammo all over the map. I’m open to ideas!
I usually keep some new Winchester ammo to check out accuracy on new purchases, that and my lead sled give me a quick idea what I bought. The white with red and orange trim Winchester boxes are a good start, if that doesn’t fly straight then experiment with hand loads.
A tang sight will help with the old eyes, but if the takedown is loose and it moves so does your shot. T/R
Did you actually slug the barrel to see what diameter you need? The diameter should be .001″ larger than the slug diameter. Make sure you aren’t holding your breath when taking the shot. Are the bullets all lead and not jacketed? A softer bullet may help. I know this may be personal but if you have A fib it is very difficult to hold on target. Many people our age have this problem. How many times have you used a solvent to remove any lead from the grooves? If jacketed bullets have been used in the past you need a copper remover too.
Muzzle looks ok according to local gunsmith. First thing I tried was Win white and orange/red box jacked. All over the target at 50 yds. I do not have any afib issues.I normally shoot better groups than the average shooter. The gunsmith said the takedown feature is one of the best he has seen, way better than the gun looks. Have not slugged the bore. A few local 38-55 shooters suggested using the longer Starline brass as the necks-are thinner and allow larger diameter bullets to chamber. I’m up to .381 with the longer brass. It has been suggested that I try .380-381 jacketed bullets considering the somewhat pitted bore. I need to find a source for those larger jacketed bullets to try.
Easty,
I have Beartooth.381 265 grain gas-checked bullets you can try. I bet they will be just what you need.
We use Starline 2.125…26 grains Reloder 7…CCI Large Rifle primer.
If you would like to try a batch of these cartridges or just the bullets, let me know.
Online
FromTheWoods said
Easty,I have Beartooth.381 265 grain gas-checked bullets you can try. I bet they will be just what you need.
Certainly worth trying, but not a substitute for jacketed bullets, if pitting is really the cause of this problem. (I’m a little skeptical it is, unless the bullets are really being shredded.) Doubt you can find jacketed bullets in that size, but the standard size is still worth trying–what do you have to loose?
The early 1873’s were shot and targeted. In the Jim Gordan Book there’s a couple ledger pages and I see targets listed from 1″ to 9″, someone bought the 9″ target one. I once owned a real 1 of 1000 barrel, I put it on a action and shot it. Even though it had a poor bore it shot with amazing accuracy, I put a beech front sight and a vernier tang, regardless whether I used jacketed or cast it was impressive. I’ve had high condition 1886’s with perfect bores shoot big groups and I’ve got a been there done that 1886 exhvy 45-90 with a maybe ok bore that is a very accurate with any of my loads. Hope you find a load but guns are not all the same even if they say Winchester on them. T/R
TR said
…someone bought the 9″ target one.
If guns that shot as lousy as that were not rejected & rebarreled or otherwise “fixed,” why bother to test them at all?
My question is the same as Chuck’s. Did you slug the bore? If not, find a competent gunsmith and have that done. Make sure he knows the proper procedure for slugging. Most bores are slightly larger in the middle of the barrel, rather than at each end. Until you have this done, all you’re doing it spitting in the wind.
Clarence, The 9″ target was s/n 115 oct barrel set trigger sent to order number 1008 with 30 plus other guns. I see a need for a “1 of 1000”. T/R
Eastman, On antique 73’s, 76′, and 86’s I’ve used the original Winchester molds to cast bullets. (I do not size), just hand lube and load to original velocity trying to keep strings within 20fps. This has worked good for me as long as the velocity was under 1450fps. When I cast, I drop the bullet hot out of the mold into a bucket of water. I’ve used this on 86’s in 38-56 with good success, I have not tried this on 94’s in 38-55. T/R
Cant tell you much more than what has already been suggested above. The 38-55 can be a tough one to load for. As TR said earlier too, Ive seen good bores not shoot very good and poor bores shoot better than good bores. It may be a matter of your bullet diameter, bullet weight, and/or powder your using or it may just be one of those bores that wont shoot consistently.
Have you had someone else shoot it to see if groups change? Also, shoot it at 25 yards instead of 50 or 100 yards to see if you still get those errant fliers and try to eliminate yourself as the problem. Have tried IMR 3031 before and found the closer to maximum I got with my bullet weight, the better the performance but I found a better powder (SR4759 that is no longer available) to use instead that gave better accuracy. You may already be at maximum shooting a 240 grn bullet and 27 grn of 3031, dont have any data for a 240 grn bullet. Regardless, its important to stay within the range of original factory velocities and sometimes faster isnt always better. You might try a different powder to see if there are any improvements.
Havent ran across this in a Winchester yet, but some guns are sensitive about bullet weight. I had a .270 that I was trying to load 150 grn bullets and must have shot 150 test cartridges of various powders and weights. The best they would group was 1.5″ at a hundred yards but never got any better. Finally found that the bore was significantly fouled with copper. Groups improved from there but still not good enough. I then tried 140 grn bullets and everything fell into place with groups of 3/4″ or better. Will never forget that little lesson.
Check for any fouling whether copper or lead. Or burrs in the muzzle. As others suggested try a different bullet whether a jacketed bullet or a gas check bullet to see if there is any improvement. Or a bullet of a different weight.
If you can rule out yourself first, then the various loads, bullets, etc, then your left with the bore as being the weak link. Every gun has a powder it likes to burn and a bullet it likes to chew, its just a matter of finding the right combination, or figuring out there isnt one.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Thanks for all the responses. Two other shooters have shot this gun as much as I have with the same results. I have some Cast Montana bullets with gas checks on the way to try. I have a few more powder options to try also. I have not given up yet.
November 7, 2015
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Gas checks may help, I cast a 50/50 mix of wheelweights and pure lead in an Accurate 38-255L mould, checked & sized .381. I don’t see much wrong with your OP load, may just need a bit more powder. My 38-55’s don’t have especially good bores so I haven’t really wrung much more than hunting accuracy out of either rifle. I’ve had mixed results with Lyman’s recently released 380681 so it may work with your rifle.
Mike
TXGunNut said
Gas checks may help…
Can’t hurt to try, but their main purpose, as I understand it, is to prevent gas cutting of the base when the velocity is pushed beyond about 1800 fps, if I remember that figure right. What that can’t do is compensate for damage to the bullet caused by extreme pitting–for that, only jacketed bullets will help.
November 7, 2015
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I agree in theory, Clarence, but in practice it’s one of those things that we just have to try. I didn’t mention it in my earlier post but the biggest difference in the Lyman 380681 and the Accurate 38-255L is the gas check. It’s a shame too, that Lyman mould is a joy to work with.
Mike
Gas-checks have solved accuracy problems in our Winchesters.
In a ’73 .32 WCF that has a horrendous bore, plain-based bullets would fly, tumble, keyhole. Jacketed did help. Gas-checks have it being a reliable, extremely accurate rifle.
They have improved accuracy in a ’73 .38 WCF. Several .32 Specials. Solved our .38-55 search for a consistently accurate load.
November 7, 2015
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As has been pointed out by a bullet caster much more learned than I, a soft lead bullet and a fast-burning powder often work together to “bump-up” a bullet to fill a less than perfect bore. As I recall much of his work on this subject was with 44 and 38WCF. I had limited success applying his theories to the 38-55 before trying the GC mould from Accurate. BP works fairly well with the Lyman bullet but I think 3031 may be a bit slow to bump up a soft bullet.
Good thread. I need to shoot my old 38-55’s again. I’ll take better notes this time!
Mike
Would this help?
“In the field of firearms and airguns, obturation denotes necessary barrel blockage or fit by a deformed soft projectile (obturation in general is closing up an opening). A bullet or pellet, made of soft material and often with a concave base, will flare under the heat and pressure of firing, filling the bore and engaging the barrel’s rifling. The mechanism by which an undersized soft-metal projectile enlarges to fill the barrel is, for hollow-based bullets, expansion from the gas pressure within the base cavity and, for solid-base bullets, upsetting the combined shortening and thickening that occurs when a malleable metal object is struck forcibly at one end”.
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