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November 3, 2015
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Just obtained a .351 cal Winchester “automatic” with British proof marks. The rifle was made in either late 1913 or early 1914 depending on the Winchester reference you use. I think the proof marks “date” to 1904-1925? Others of these were brought in for sale by companies like Walter Locke and the Army & Navy Coop but there are no retailer marks on this one. I know 120 of these were ordered by GB to use in aero squadrons at the beginning of WWI before machine guns were common. This rifle also has a “U.S.” on the stock and a bayonet attachment. I will put out other feelers with the British Gun collectors questioning how common is it to have British proof marks on a foreign made rifle with no retailer mark? If it went to the government after it was imported then wouldn’t it have military marks? I did a Google search and found only 4 other 1907s with British proof marks like these – two were specially modified for airplanes – larger trigger guard, larger charger handle, brass catcher but also do not appear to have govt marks just commercial proofs. In John Henwood’s book “The Forgotten Winchesters” he only knew of one 1907 with British proofs (in 1996) so I am assuming these are pretty rare.
The French also ordered 2000+ of these for early plane armament and then for ground troops but I have not been able to find out whether these have French proofs or markings. There is a rumor that the French 1907s came through Britain and would have British proofs but again I haven’t been able to find any evidence of this yet.
The seller thought it might have been associated with the Mexican Punitive Expedition – 19 1907s were used by the 1st Aero Squadron in the hunt for Pancho Villa in 1916 and 1917 prior to the US entering WWI. It isn’t clear if these would have had Military markings or not. I’m chasing a lead on that as well.
All in all a very interesting rifle. Any comments or suggestions about researching the rifle would be greatly appreciated.
John
WACA No. 9886. Constantly learning about Model 1907 and Model 1910 Self-Loading Rifles.
February 4, 2008
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The rifle has London commercial proof marks. I have yet to see one of these rifles with a UK retailers name engraved on it which does not mean that it did not happen, but it would not be a common occurrence. My own example which dates to 1915 only has London proof marks as well.
It has been reported 120 were imported into the UK by the London Armoury Company for use in the air. Certainly this is what documentation in the Mccracken Library in Cody states, however with the last shipments of the 120 not occurring until late 1916 when areoplanes were being armed with machine guns, I doubt that all 120 of these rifles ended up in service.A letter from the LAC to the Ministry of Munitions asking if any more 1907’s will be required is replayed to by saying there will be no further requirements for this rifle, the letter is dated 1915. They are documented in early British training manuals for aerial gunnery, but the references relate to using them for ground practice, shooting at balloons etc. Only a small quantity show up in the big 60 page list of surplus stock to be sold off, in 1928. I have never seen one with British ordnance markings, but this may be similar to the 1,000 odd Winchester Model 1903 auto rifles, where some received Enfield inspection marks and others didn’t, Some of these 1903’s are stamped ‘R.A.F.’, but this was applied at the end or just after the war as some of these were retained in service. If the Model 1907’s were disposed of at the end of the war I would not expect to see one with such markings.
The U.S. marking on the stock is incongruous with the London commercial proof marks.
Regards
AlanD
Sydney
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