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TR said What happens when you stamp new serial numbers? Is it now a clone? T/R
No, it’s a fraud.
steve004 said
This is a very attractive rifle. It letters as engraved, 7-leaf sight, set trigger, nickel trim, swivels – wonderful. The rifle is in high condition. We know most collectors prefer original pieces but this is a Turnbull restoration. Estimate is $13,000 to $19,000. From the description, the barrel and stocks have been replaced. That leaves the receiver and the 7-leaf sight. Presumably, it is the original receiver. It has of course been refinished. But what of the engraving? Was the old engraving removed, a blank slate created and a skilled engraver produced what we see? I’m not aware what, “$2.50” engraving looks like. Perhaps it’s not as elaborate as what we are seeing on this piece?Thoughts on this piece?
For those interested in the outcome, this hammered today at $9,500.
steve004 said
Jeremy Scott. said
I can shed some light here I believe. first let me say I was not the individual that had any of the winchesters restored, that was wayne connor. The 1873 in question I had in my collection prior to its restoration. It was not a wreck,not even close. nor was the 50-100-450 as I owned that one too prior to restoration. the 19 inch I owned as well. I will start with the 1873 engraved in question serial 398,807 its was a honest used but not abused gun. very little finish left other than traces but not a wreck and not pitted metal or issues. what they forgot was its actually pictured on page 450 of gordons book if anyone would like to go take a look that has those books or i can can and upload here to see it. it was a rather nice honest gun. on to the 50-100-450 serial 74637 1886 harry mentioned was a wreck. i owned this gun in my collection and sold it to wayne in 2009. it was a very honest clean gun. no wood issues, not sanded, barrel and mag about 60% original blue and frame had traces of case in protected areas but was basically silver. I purchased that gun out west in british columbia in 2008 when i was on a trip in search of winchesters. lastly the 1894 harry mentioned as a wreck serial 81533 . I owned this one as well . it was in poor condition, however it was fully complete and functioned/shot fine. the metal was pitted and wood ruff. what was not mentioned was I purchased it in 2007/2008 from the original family descendant in alberta canada on one of my hunts for winchesters. It was used exclusively on the families ranch on horseback . it was ordered short for that purpose much like a baby carbine was. it had a very colorful ranch history in alberta. a side note many of the factory original high condition guns in this sale were from my collection. and some others of the restored guns were in my collection prior to restoration as well.
Jeremy –
Very interesting information. Thank you for posting it. I was the one who started this topic and I never dreamed it would lead to so much specific information and history. Your information makes me sad as I happen to be the kind of collector who would have loved to have those rifles in my collection – in the condition they were before they were restored. On the .50-100-450 – the original barrel was included in the auction and shown in a photo. From what I could see, it looked like it had a whole lot of original blue remaining. I know some collectors really enjoy restorations but for me, taking something that is all original and fairly decent and making it into a remanufactured rifle … makes me frown… pretty hard.
Fort those interested, this .50-100-450 #74637 (Turnbull restoration which included the original barrel as an extra) hammered at RIA today at $22,500 (lot #30). This was the lower end of the reserve ($20,000 to $35,000). I suspect we will see it again.
clarence said
Jeremy Scott. said
The 1873 in question I had in my collection prior to its restoration. It was not a wreck,not even close. nor was the 50-100-450 as I owned that one too prior to restoration. the 19 inch I owned as well. I will start with the 1873 engraved in question serial 398,807 its was a honest used but not abused gun. very little finish left other than traces but not a wreck and not pitted metal or issues. it was a very honest clean gun. no wood issues, not sanded, barrel and mag about 60% original blue and frame had traces of case in protected areas but was basically silver.
This is EXACTLY the reason for the apprehension I tried previously to express over “nice clean guns” being sent to the chop-shop by folks having no respect for the honest service the gun was built for! A gun most true collectors with an appreciation for history would be very pleased to own, but now converted into an artificial, phony, creation of the restorer’s workshop, with perhaps only the rcvr. & buttplate actually manufactured by Winchester.
premature euthenasia – don’t understand it myself, especially when it comes to something like a 50-100-450 where so few were ever made and even fewer survived that there are not enough available for collectors who would like to own an original speciman.
November 7, 2015
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steve004 said
steve004 said
This is a very attractive rifle. It letters as engraved, 7-leaf sight, set trigger, nickel trim, swivels – wonderful. The rifle is in high condition. We know most collectors prefer original pieces but this is a Turnbull restoration. Estimate is $13,000 to $19,000. From the description, the barrel and stocks have been replaced. That leaves the receiver and the 7-leaf sight. Presumably, it is the original receiver. It has of course been refinished. But what of the engraving? Was the old engraving removed, a blank slate created and a skilled engraver produced what we see? I’m not aware what, “$2.50” engraving looks like. Perhaps it’s not as elaborate as what we are seeing on this piece?
Thoughts on this piece?
For those interested in the outcome, this hammered today at $9,500.
A bit disappointing for the seller, I’d imagine. Safe bet that would barely cover today’s cost of the restoration. I’m still struggling to understand this segment of the collector firearms market. I won’t be a player in this arena but it’s a growing segment and I’d like to make some sense of it.
Mike
TXGunNut said
steve004 said
steve004 said
This is a very attractive rifle. It letters as engraved, 7-leaf sight, set trigger, nickel trim, swivels – wonderful. The rifle is in high condition. We know most collectors prefer original pieces but this is a Turnbull restoration. Estimate is $13,000 to $19,000. From the description, the barrel and stocks have been replaced. That leaves the receiver and the 7-leaf sight. Presumably, it is the original receiver. It has of course been refinished. But what of the engraving? Was the old engraving removed, a blank slate created and a skilled engraver produced what we see? I’m not aware what, “$2.50” engraving looks like. Perhaps it’s not as elaborate as what we are seeing on this piece?
Thoughts on this piece?
For those interested in the outcome, this hammered today at $9,500.
A bit disappointing for the seller, I’d imagine. Safe bet that would barely cover today’s cost of the restoration. I’m still struggling to understand this segment of the collector firearms market. I won’t be a player in this arena but it’s a growing segment and I’d like to make some sense of it.
Mike
I agree. The world is changing around us at a staggering level. Even down to our world of old gun collecting. That growing segment of the collecting community that doesn’t seem to care about originality stumps me. I’m not just referring to restored guns, but mixed parts guns etc. As we advise each other about potential purchases and toss out the usual adages such as, “that will be hard to sell because it doesn’t letter” – how true is that anymore? Sure, it remains true for our dwindling group of old guys, but we are rapidly becoming the minority of active buyers out there.
TXGunNut said I’m still struggling to understand this segment of the collector firearms market.
Same mentality as those so-called “collectors” of Franklin Mint crapola, except a WHOLE lot richer. A re-manufactured gun is as phony as a new fake-gold engraved “John Wayne Tribute” Model 94.
I can think of 4 reasons why someone wants a restored gun. 1 is the collector who wants a high condition gun but can’t afford the real one, 2 a collector who does not want a high condition original because they are afraid of it getting damaged from storage, handling or want to shoot it and wants something that will impress his friends, 3 The collector or investor who just does not know better i.e. more money than brains, 4 the gun that has sentimental value and is not in very good condition. This is the restored market.
As to the commemoratives or Franklin Mint guns. That just people that want an investment or it really looks neat but doesn’t understand for a gun to increase in value there has to be mortality of the other guns for his gun to go up in value or an increase in the cost of producing the gun.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
There’s lot of examples (beyond firearms) of people spending money on things they know little about. The, “shiny object” appeal can be strong.
1873man said
I can think of 4 reasons why someone wants a restored gun. 1 is the collector who wants a high condition gun but can’t afford the real one
But he hasn’t got a “real one” if you’re talking about the kinds of guns Turnbull & his imitators turn out; how can a gun be a “real” Winchester when the only parts of it manufactured by the factory are the rcvr. & maybe some minor components like the butt plate? Logical answer: it’s obviously NOT a “real Winchester,” it’s as much of an artificial “collectible” as the products of Franklin Mint.
A gun that’s had its original components refinished & repaired if needed, which will probably include some degree of sanding, polishing, maybe welding, etc., can be said to be “restored.” But if most major parts have been replaced, that’s not restoring, that’s re-manufacture. Maybe there’s some better term to describe such guns, but to call them “restored” is grossly misleading.
Amusing to see someone bringing in a Franklin Mint, or similar “instant collectible” to the Pawn Stars shop: they find out immediately what their “investment” is worth. (But more power to Franklin Mint, so long as they continue to buy full-page ads in the Rifleman.)
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