Thoughts on this Winchester model 1886, 38-70 |Page 2|Winchester Rifles|Forum|Winchester Collector

Bert-

I agree that it was manufactured with a 26″ barrel and it seems the current price reflects that. It looks like it may have been cut down some time back but that could be deceiving. In my opinion it will never be the collector grade gun the seller says it is but it seems there are all types of collectors these days. I suspect it will go for a lot more than I’d ever give for it. I like period modified guns and this may be one, if I was interested I think it would be worth a look. I’d want to shoot it and seller’s bore rating of 7/10 is a bit discouraging, as is the chambering. I can’t help but like the gun, that short barrel looks handy.

Mike

The members here have nailed this one, pretty thou rally!

I see some older varnish, or lacquer on the butt plate which we see from time to time to protect it. 

I always wondered how the wood, at the toe, in front of the butt plate got to be scraped like that, or scratched, if you will, and the butt plate doesn’t show the same wear and tear!

Anthony

Did the .38-70 have anything to offer?  It looks to me like the .38-55, .38-56 and .38-70 all used 255 grain bullets as a standard loading.

Of course in the Winchester M1886, they felt the need to have three .40 caliber loadings.  This sort of made sense as the .40-82 was more of an express round a 260 grain bullet and the .40-70 had less powder to accommodate the 330 grain bullet.  This reminds me of the .50-100-450 and the .50-100-300.  And while I’m thinking out loud there was the .45-70-405 and the .45-90-300 filled the express sound niche.  

Back to the .38-70 – any rationale at all for it’s existence?

It’s interesting that, setting aside the .50 calibers, Marlin chose to chamber every Winchester M1886 caliber in their Marlin M1895 – with the exception of the .38-70.  I assume their designers posed the question – “what’s it good for?” – and no one came up with anything.

Isn’t 1894 pretty early for that late style buttplate?

We’r

sb said
Isn’t 1894 pretty early for that late style buttplate?
  

Anthony said
Steve,
It makes me wonder about the 40-70 WCF, as the same situation. Only slightly over 863 we’re mfg if I remember correctly, from John Madl’s survey, and not many in the M-1885, if my memory serves me correct!
Interesting stuff gentlemen!
 
Tony
  

We’re really staining our memories today.  My weak memory is thinking the number was around 863 for for the 38-70 and the 40-70 was even lower – 629?

Is it a good time to introduce the 38 Creedmoor and the 40 PRC? We could introduce them at the shot show, so all the gun writers could hype them. Now, it is time to go back to loading some 38-70 WCF. Obsolete, step child it is, but, fun to shoot. Third time loading with H4895 instead of H4198. I would be happy owning the listed on gunbroker if it was priced right.

Shoot more antiques,

Stuart Vordenbaum

Fredericksburg, Texas

oldcrankyyankee said

steve004 said
  

Anthony said
Steve,
It makes me wonder about the 40-70 WCF, as the same situation. Only slightly over 863 we’re mfg if I remember correctly, from John Madl’s survey, and not many in the M-1885, if my memory serves me correct!
Interesting stuff gentlemen!
 
Tony
  

We’re really staining our memories today.  My weak memory is thinking the number was around 863 for for the 38-70 and the 40-70 was even lower – 629?
  

To me in my readings these numbers fluctuate a bit. Not sure anyone knows for fact. But neither one saw much success. But in my collecting I do see the 40-70 a tad more often. In fact I have one and only one and none in 38-70. Saw one in Cody that was nice but a bit over priced. The 40-82 really trumped the 40-70 by far. And if the numbers are correct it was more popular in sales than my beloved 45-90.
  

According to John Madl’s info, 5/2003 version, 831 40-70s were manufactured and 1,139 38-70s.  You have to remember that smokeless powder cartridges were really taking hold of the market at this time.  Who wanted a black powder caliber?   Especially one that just wasn’t much of a cartridge to begin with.  Unlike the 32-40s and the 38-55’s.  These were proven target calibers that filled a small gap while Winchester was trying to get the 30 WCF figured out. 

Anthony said

Bert H. said

Anthony said
Steve,
It makes me wonder about the 40-70 WCF, as the same situation. Only slightly over 863 we’re mfg if I remember correctly, from John Madl’s survey, and not many in the M-1885, if my memory serves me correct!
Interesting stuff gentlemen!
 
Tony
  

The most popular 40-70 cartridge for the Single Shot was the 40-70 Sharps Straight followed by the 40-70 Ballard (I have a high-wall rifle in both of those cartridges in my collection).  The 40-70 WCF was never a competitor with those other two cartridges.
Bert
  

Interesting Bert! I just took a glance at you’re published Winter 2021 survey in the Collector, and found you’re information there once again of great use. 
Tony
  

I spent the last 45 minutes re-reading and study Bert’s excellent article and data he presented.  What a goldmine of information!  I was particularly struck by the great rarity of the .40-70 WCF chambering in the single-shot rifle with zero noted in the factory ledgers and only one picked up by Bert’s subsequent survey!  I think it would be accurate to say that there is no chambering in the single-shot rifle that is more rare than the .40-70 WCF (although there are others that there is only one example of).  

Relatively speaking, the .38-70 WCF was much more popular with with six showing up in the factory ledgers.

Anthony said
Steve,
I couldn’t agree with you more, on all accounts. 
We’re make a M-1885 S.S. Collector out of you yet!!! LOL!
 
Tony
  

Tony –

Believe me, the temptation is there, and has been there for decades!  The single-shot Winchester came in many exotic and appealing chamberings.  Over the many decades, some very interesting offerings have passed within reach.  Examples such as the .500 and .577 Eley, various .50 calibers and so on could have gone into an impression collection.  Between all the possible chamberings, barrel weights, barrel lengths and so on, no other Winchester model comes close to as many possible combinations.  

And let’s not forget, the single-shot model could be had in the .32 W.S. and the .33 WCF