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December 21, 2006
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I don’t know if this is pertinent to what You guys are talking about, but is sure does hold some significance to Me. And just f.y.i. if You’re thinking about importing a firearm.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
April 15, 2005
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wolfbait said
This thread has over 900 views. If someone is interested, they could contact ATF and ask what numbers are used to determine antique status of a Winchester. And report back.
In past years, I have done exactly what you suggest… and depending on which person you actually speak to and which regional office you call, the answer varied. After speaking with one of the regional offices, they asked me for a hard copy antique serial number cut-offs. I provided them with a copy of the table that I published in Chapter 8 of my reference book “The Red Book of Winchester Values, 4th edition”.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 6, 2011
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Zebulon said
wolfbait said
This thread has over 900 views. If someone is interested, they could contact ATF and ask what numbers are used to determine antique status of a Winchester. And report back.
I detect a note of sarcasm. Obviously a number of people are interested, so l will write to them and ask the question. Before I mail the letter, I’ll post the draft here and ask for criticism so we can all be on the same page.
If ATF responds in writing, that will answer the question. There is no middle ground. They either use the polishing room numbers, or they use the Madis numbers.
April 15, 2005
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wolfbait said
Zebulon said
wolfbait said
This thread has over 900 views. If someone is interested, they could contact ATF and ask what numbers are used to determine antique status of a Winchester. And report back.
I detect a note of sarcasm. Obviously a number of people are interested, so l will write to them and ask the question. Before I mail the letter, I’ll post the draft here and ask for criticism so we can all be on the same page.
If ATF responds in writing, that will answer the question. There is no middle ground. They either use the polishing room numbers, or they use the Madis numbers.
That is a correct statement… there is no middle ground. From a purely legal standpoint, the BATF has no choice but to use the actual verified Winchester (Polishing Room) records. To do otherwise would be malfeasant and invite indefensible lawsuits.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 6, 2011
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A response from ATF on the matter will answer the question. No other opinion matters. I will be glad to see this settled.
December 9, 2002
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Bert H. said
wolfbait said
This thread has over 900 views. If someone is interested, they could contact ATF and ask what numbers are used to determine antique status of a Winchester. And report back.
In past years, I have done exactly what you suggest… and depending on which person you actually speak to and which regional office you call, the answer varied. After speaking with one of the regional offices, they asked me for a hard copy antique serial number cut-offs. I provided them with a copy of the table that I published in Chapter 8 of my reference book “The Red Book of Winchester Values, 4th edition”.
Bert
Bert,
This was my point earlier, that I didn’t clarify very well earlier. It all depends who you get on the phone, or who answers you’re questions, as the answers vary, with that.
wolfbait said
A response from ATF on the matter will answer the question. No other opinion matters. I will be glad to see this settled.
I would like to see a proper response also, but I’m afraid they probably have bigger fish to fry, or things to handle, than to worry about a speculative questionable forum, on anything.
Anthony
January 20, 2023
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A little cleanup is indicated. As Bert has said, ATF does not speak with a single voice, except through a formal opinion or interpretation out of Washington D. C., for which there is a process. It is not bound by anything else.
The Interpretation you get might not be binary — either this or that. While that is a logical conclusion, those who have actually practiced some administrative law have learned it doesn’t always happen. And it just may be such a bright line is not desireable.
No enturbies el agua que nos rodea porque pronto podremos tener que beberla. Be careful what you ask for.
And Tony has a point — not that they are too busy, but that what I would be asking for is speculative: in a future proceeding, which piece of evidence trumps the other?
I have never heard of an administrative proceeding or criminal case against a licensee or non-licensee for failing to book a single putative antique firearm because he relied on Madis or some other presently questionable source. That just means I didn’t spend a day in SMU’s library and went bird hunting instead, but of all the howling I’ve ever heard about ATF dealer “harrassment”, that complaint isn’t one of them.
Instead of letter writing that might result in eliminating possible favorable evidence, I suggest that, going forward, we all rely on the Polishing Room records and, for backup, maintain an 03 license.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
April 15, 2005
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Zebulon said
Instead of letter writing that might result in eliminating possible favorable evidence, I suggest that, going forward, we all rely on the Polishing Room records and, for backup, maintain an 03 license.
That is precisely the position that I (and the WACA) strongly endorse for all of our members.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
January 20, 2023
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Bert H. said
Zebulon said
Instead of letter writing that might result in eliminating possible favorable evidence, I suggest that, going forward, we all rely on the Polishing Room records and, for backup, maintain an 03 license.
That is precisely the position that I (and the WACA) strongly endorse for all of our members.
Bert
Concur.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
March 31, 2009
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Wolfbait, I concur with Bert and Zebulon. No reason to stir the pot. Use the polishing room records and you have no worries. I travel a lot and each TSA agent has their own opinions. The BATFE agent that shows up to audit the gun shop does the same. The Law is clear, pre 1899.
March 6, 2011
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This is not a difficult legal question. We have 3 pages of discussion on it here, and there have been many similar discussions in the past. An answer in writing from ATF would very simply answer the question. Does ATF use the PR numbers, or the Madis numbers, as they have for many decades, to determine the manufacturing date of Winchesters. RIA, a major auction house uses the Madis numbers. Do you think they risk committing felonies without getting guidance from ATF? The RIA auction presented here brought up this question. Again. One person here said they were going to draft a letter to ATF asking their advice. That should end all the chatter.
April 15, 2005
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wolfbait said
This is not a difficult legal question. We have 3 pages of discussion on it here, and there have been many similar discussions in the past. An answer in writing from ATF would very simply answer the question. Does ATF use the PR numbers, or the Madis numbers, as they have for many decades, to determine the manufacturing date of Winchesters. RIA, a major auction house uses the Madis numbers. Do you think they risk committing felonies without getting guidance from ATF? The RIA auction presented here brought up this question. Again. One person here said they were going to draft a letter to ATF asking their advice. That should end all the chatter.
I have told you this before, but I will reiterate it again for your benefit (and anyone else who reads this lengthy topic string). The WACA and this website will adhere to the strict letter of the law in regard to what is and is not legally classified as antique, not what G. Madis published. This topic is non-negotiable regardless of what you personally believe, or what or how any auction house (RIA) might do. You as an individual can do whatever your conscious guides you to do, but I will not allow anyone to publicly espouse violating Federal law on this website.
Bert – Admin
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 6, 2011
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“This is topic is non-negotiable regardless of what you personally believe, or what or how any auction house (RIA) might do.”
I also believe that everyone should obey the law. ATF, the Federal firearm regulatory agency in the US, interprets and enforces the law. They alone make the decision as to what numbers are used to determine antique status of a Winchester. I would just like to hear what their opinion on the matter is.
March 31, 2009
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So, you should contact them and see if they respond officially or just get that person’s opinion.
March 6, 2011
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Chuck said
So, you should contact them and see if they respond officially or just get that person’s opinion.
Another person here, who appears very articulate, said “Obviously a number of people are interested, so l will write to them and ask the question. Before I mail the letter, I’ll post the draft here and ask for criticism so we can all be on the same page.” We will see what happens.
Some people here seem to believe that Federal agencies are so inept, that they are incapable of officially answering a simple question. A response in writing from ATF is different than a casual conversation with an ATF employee.
November 7, 2015
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wolfbait said
“This is topic is non-negotiable regardless of what you personally believe, or what or how any auction house (RIA) might do.”I also believe that everyone should obey the law. ATF, the Federal firearm regulatory agency in the US, interprets and enforces the law. They alone make the decision as to what numbers are used to determine antique status of a Winchester. I would just like to hear what their opinion on the matter is.
BATFE is part of the Executive Branch and therefore is supposed to enforce the law. Judicial Branch is charged with interpreting the law. Unfortunately the Executive Branch has gotten into the habit of creating regulations that have the force of law. If you want to rely on Madis’ “records” I’d advise you to carefully read what he said about them. As a rule BATFE should rely on factory records and the PR records are undoubtedly factory records.
Mike
March 6, 2011
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TXGunNut said
wolfbait said
“This is topic is non-negotiable regardless of what you personally believe, or what or how any auction house (RIA) might do.”
I also believe that everyone should obey the law. ATF, the Federal firearm regulatory agency in the US, interprets and enforces the law. They alone make the decision as to what numbers are used to determine antique status of a Winchester. I would just like to hear what their opinion on the matter is.
BATFE is part of the Executive Branch and therefore is supposed to enforce the law. Judicial Branch is charged with interpreting the law. Unfortunately the Executive Branch has gotten into the habit of creating regulations that have the force of law. If you want to rely on Madis’ “records” I’d advise you to carefully read what he said about them. As a rule BATFE should rely on factory records and the PR records are undoubtedly factory records.
Mike
I am interested in hearing what numbers ATF, who enforces the law, uses in determining the antique status of Winchesters. About 150,000 Model 1892s and 1894s alone are effected. Until I get official written information from ATF that they will continue to use the Madis numbers, as they have for about 50 years, I will use the PR numbers. I recommend other collectors do the same.
September 19, 2014
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Folks, this topic arises from the dead every so often. Its beating a dead horse for sure. Wishing for the “old days” of the use of George Madis’ serial number list won’t bring it back nor turn the clock back. It was good for its time, but newer info superceded and is the safe way to stay legal. I suggest you or anyone else doesn’t want to be the case to establish which rules are used. Tim
March 6, 2011
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tim tomlinson said
Folks, this topic arises from the dead every so often. Its beating a dead horse for sure. Wishing for the “old days” of the use of George Madis’ serial number list won’t bring it back nor turn the clock back. It was good for its time, but newer info superceded and is the safe way to stay legal. I suggest you or anyone else doesn’t want to be the case to establish which rules are used. Tim
Use the PR numbers. OK. But I do not understand why some collectors do not want to know what numbers, PR or Madis, ATF, the enforcement entity, says is legally proper to use for determining the antique status of a Winchester. What if ATF responds officially and states that they will continue to use the Madis numbers that they have used for 50 years to determine the antique status of a Winchester? Perhaps it is not worth it to them to change at this time, regarding guns 125 years old, that may be a year or two different in production.
It is not beating a dead horse. The horse never died. An official answer from ATF will put the matter to rest. “I suggest you or anyone else doesn’t want to be the case to establish which rules are used.” If ATF officially states they use the Madis numbers, which has been the case for 50 years, then there will be no question as to which rules are used.
If you do not buy/sell/trade Winchesters with collectors from other states through the mail or at gun shows, I understand why this is of no concern to you. An official response from ATF will provide the proper guideline.
April 15, 2005
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wolfbait said
An official response from ATF will provide the proper guideline.
Good luck getting the answer you seek. Finding the person at the BATF that is both authorized and willing to put out a written signed statement to the affect that you seek is highly unlikely. Again, I strongly suggest that you very simply follow the verifiable and legal serialization records to determine what is, and is not, a bona fide Antique Winchester (like the vast majority of WACA members do).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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