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December 9, 2002
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Yes it is Steve!
Bill,
A great read!
Many good comments, by BRP, Chuck, and the rest. Very interesting to many of us!
Anthony
December 21, 2006
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Yes, very good read and especially if one happens to be Canaadian ,or other nationality, getting nabbed with an non antique could have severe consequences. I wonder if R.I.A. would actually ship it to Me direct to Canada as an antique, that would save Me several $’s in import fees, They’ve done it before. Once it gets to the Canada border it really doesn’t matter as it is not recognised as antique here, and I do have the necessary licenses to buy and own that gun here.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
February 17, 2022
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Question here, if a gun were shipped to you as antique by a FFL, and you do you do diligence and find that the source they used to post it as antique status is incorrect, and you carry a type 3 FFL, do you run it on your books as a C&R? If you do that does that change the category status of said firearm? No horse in this race, just asking.
April 15, 2005
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oldcrankyyankee said
Question here, if a gun were shipped to you as antique by a FFL, and you do you do diligence and find that the source they used to post it as antique status is incorrect, and you carry a type 3 FFL, do you run it on your books as a C&R? If you do that does that change the category status of said firearm? No horse in this race, just asking.
Yes, I would enter it in my C&R ledger book. No, it does not change its status… it was always a C&R to begin with.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
February 17, 2022
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Bert H. said
oldcrankyyankee said
Question here, if a gun were shipped to you as antique by a FFL, and you do you do diligence and find that the source they used to post it as antique status is incorrect, and you carry a type 3 FFL, do you run it on your books as a C&R? If you do that does that change the category status of said firearm? No horse in this race, just asking.
Yes, I would enter it in my C&R ledger book. No, it does not change its status… it was always a C&R to begin with.
Bert
Thanks Bert, kind of what I was thinking would be the correct thing.
January 20, 2023
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Tom, Bert is correct that the seller’s opinion doesn’t matter. The gun is what it is. That is what makes having an 03 license so desirable for collectors who are buying (or think they’re buying) antiques.
If the dealer fails to book the gun outbound, it is his cone at risk, not that of the C&R buyer who books it in.
Two things I haven’t researched but intend to, that might have application, are (1) is a mistake of fact defense available to a buyer or seller in a prosecution for violations of GCA 68; and (2) is a misrepresentation to a commercial carrier like UPS and Fedex that violates their terms of carriage, also a violation of some part of the Federal Criminal Code. My guess is yes to 1. and yes to 2.
Of course, outside America’s Iron Curtain it may all be hypothetical and, even in New Jersey, its hard to think of a circumstance where.a dealer would be called to account by your average BATFE agent, since the not-quite-an-antique was never in the dealer’s ledger. That’s not my understanding of how ATF audits are performed. If I’m wrong I’d be interested to hear about it.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 19, 2006
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Zebulon said
Tom, Bert is correct that the seller’s opinion doesn’t matter. The gun is what it is. That is what makes having an 03 license so desirable for collectors who are buying (or think they’re buying) antiques.If the dealer fails to book the gun outbound, it is his cone at risk, not that of the C&R buyer who books it in.
Two things I haven’t researched but intend to, that might have application, are (1) is a mistake of fact defense available to a buyer or seller in a prosecution for violations of GCA 68; and (2) is a misrepresentation to a commercial carrier like UPS and Fedex that violates their terms of carriage, also a violation of some part of the Federal Criminal Code. My guess is yes to 1. and yes to 2.
Of course, outside America’s Iron Curtain it may all be hypothetical and, even in New Jersey, its hard to think of a circumstance where.a dealer would be called to account by your average BATFE agent, since the not-quite-an-antique was never in the dealer’s ledger. That’s not my understanding of how ATF audits are performed. If I’m wrong I’d be interested to hear about it.
Bill –
Interesting thoughts. In the case of the rifle that started this post, the auctioneer begins by classifying the rifle as an antique and backs this up by the Madis data which backs this claim up. So, if they stopped there (e.g. let’s say a museum letter was never acquired – or thrown away after it was acquired) a buyer who wasn’t as informed as members here (which describes a whole lot of buyers) might make the purchase and not think twice about receiving it directly at their home. Perhaps they even do a bit of due diligence and verify that the Madis numbers do indeed indicate the rifle falls in the pre-1899 range. I’m sure this very scenario has happened countless times. The buy would seemingly have the basis to mount a mistake of fact defense.
Back to the rifle in this situation, how could there be any, mistake of fact defense – for either seller or buyer – when right in their description and photos, they provide clear evidence that the rifle is post-1898?
This discussion also brings back the memory when it was common practice to ship various post-1898 rifles because of 1) their “obsolete caliber” status and 2) that the particular model in question had an antecedent that had been in production prior to 1899. Hence, depending on the chambering, many rifles, “qualified.” I recall the widely circulated letter Roy Jinks of Smith and Wesson received from a BATF regional director who described how a M1886 chambered in .40-82 that was manufactured after 1898 qualified as an antique. I also recall from that time period various dealers were routinely advertising post-1898 M1894’s in .32-40 and .38-55 as antiques. I recall the key back then is the rifle was chambered in a cartridge that was, “not available through normal commercial outlets” (something to that effect). I also recall back then the scope of what a commercial outlet consisted of was not well-clarified. True, you couldn’t go in a store a buy a box of .40-82, but you could write Connecticut Cartridge Company and they would send you a box (which old-timers did).
March 6, 2011
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RIA is well known to ATF I am sure. RIA publicly advertises their guns for sale, like this one. If ATF was concerned about these “almost antiques”, I believe they would have had a talk with RIA by now.
Having an FFL, I get ATFs newsletters. Never has ATF come out and said they now use the polishing room numbers, and no longer use the long used Madis numbers to determine an antique. It would be easy for ATF to make that statement. But they have chosen not to. I spoke to RIA about one their guns using Madis numbers. They told they use the numbers that ATF instructed them to use.
January 20, 2023
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wolfbait said
RIA is well known to ATF I am sure. RIA publicly advertises their guns for sale, like this one. If ATF was concerned about these “almost antiques”, I believe they would have had a talk with RIA by now.Having an FFL, I get ATFs newsletters. Never has ATF come out and said they now use the polishing room numbers, and no longer use the long used Madis numbers to determine an antique. It would be easy for ATF to make that statement. But they have chosen not to. I spoke to RIA about one their guns using Madis numbers. They told they use the numbers that ATF instructed them to use.
That’s what I would have thought. My experience with ATF has been with the Dallas office only and then very rarely and a long time ago – for clients. But, from what I’ve been told by storefront dealers – bricks & mortar dealers who’ve had a presence in the area for a good while — the agents become familiar faces and are not difficult to deal with. ATF relies on the legitimate dealers to tip them to possible straw-buyers, etc. I’m sure there are exceptions to that circumstance but the typical relationship between a regulatory agency and a regulated business has a tendency to become more comfortable rather than more adversarial, over time.
The threat to a legitimate dealer who messes up is less the risk of criminal prosecution than a temporary license suspension (not a revocation.) Even anti-gun United States Attorneys have prosecution budgets and have to be selective. A de minimus violation holds no interest for them unless it’s in connection with other crimes much worse that might be difficult to prove. “So, we’ll let your man cop to a GCA 68 violation, he pays a 10K fine and surrenders his license, no incarceration.”
Unless senior management of ATF really puts heat on the field offices, clearly legitimate dealers with a history of compliance are unlikely to have trouble over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Even the low rent bozos who rob Big D liquor stores can do better than a Lefaucheux M1858 pinfire and the average field agent has no interest in becoming a firearms historian.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 19, 2006
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Zebulon said
wolfbait said
RIA is well known to ATF I am sure. RIA publicly advertises their guns for sale, like this one. If ATF was concerned about these “almost antiques”, I believe they would have had a talk with RIA by now.
Having an FFL, I get ATFs newsletters. Never has ATF come out and said they now use the polishing room numbers, and no longer use the long used Madis numbers to determine an antique. It would be easy for ATF to make that statement. But they have chosen not to. I spoke to RIA about one their guns using Madis numbers. They told they use the numbers that ATF instructed them to use.
That’s what I would have thought. My experience with ATF has been with the Dallas office only and then very rarely and a long time ago – for clients. But, from what I’ve been told by storefront dealers – bricks & mortar dealers who’ve had a presence in the area for a good while — the agents become familiar faces and are not difficult to deal with. ATF relies on the legitimate dealers to tip them to possible straw-buyers, etc. I’m sure there are exceptions to that circumstance but the typical relationship between a regulatory agency and a regulated business has a tendency to become more comfortable rather than more adversarial, over time.
The threat to a legitimate dealer who messes up is less the risk of criminal prosecution than a temporary license suspension (not a revocation.) Even anti-gun United States Attorneys have prosecution budgets and have to be selective. A de minimus violation holds no interest for them unless it’s in connection with other crimes much worse that might be difficult to prove. “So, we’ll let your man cop to a GCA 68 violation, he pays a 10K fine and surrenders his license, no incarceration.”
Unless senior management of ATF really puts heat on the field offices, clearly legitimate dealers with a history of compliance are unlikely to have trouble over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Even the low rent bozos who rob Big D liquor stores can do better than a Lefaucheux M1858 pinfire and the average field agent has no interest in becoming a firearms historian.
I found the above report from Wolfbait most interesting. And it is in sync with what Bill is saying. I suppose that given the Madis numbers were the numbers that were generally accepted and used for many decades, it makes sense they would just keep going with that.
November 7, 2015
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wolfbait said
RIA is well known to ATF I am sure. RIA publicly advertises their guns for sale, like this one. If ATF was concerned about these “almost antiques”, I believe they would have had a talk with RIA by now.Having an FFL, I get ATFs newsletters. Never has ATF come out and said they now use the polishing room numbers, and no longer use the long used Madis numbers to determine an antique. It would be easy for ATF to make that statement. But they have chosen not to. I spoke to RIA about one their guns using Madis numbers. They told they use the numbers that ATF instructed them to use.
I can assure you RIA and BATFE are well aware of polishing room records and the records division of the CFM. Apparently it’s not something they concern themselves with as many collectors seem to prefer Madis’ “records” as well. Antique status means a lot to some collectors and some prefer one source even though they know there is more accurate information available. One thing for certain is I don’t want any difficulties with BATFE and I don’t want to invite further scrutiny for collectors, sellers or auction houses.
Mike
March 31, 2009
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Mike, I fully agree. I don’t want to be the test case here in Kommiefornia.
September 22, 2011
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If this was to become a problem, due to a rifle being labeled an antique, but really not quite so, I would think there would be a statute of limitations. How long would that be?
It seems that an issue is not being made of this, but if it was, I would think one might be protected by a statute of limitations, I’m guessing 1, 2, 5, or 10 years.
January 20, 2023
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Ian, there is a SofL for criminal prosecutions; I’d have to look it up.and my library is history. But this is largely a regulatory matter where the risk to the dealer is license suspension or, at worst, revocation. I assume any sane businessman who deals in (not just collects) antique firearms has an 01 license for commercial and practical reasons.
In the extremely unlikely event a licensee is questioned by an ATF field agent about whether a particular Model 1894 carbine was made in 1898 or 1899:
There are considerations not found in the statutes or regulations that are so important they are probably controlling:
1. Does the 01 have a history of compliance?
2. Was the date of manfacture relied on determined using methods previously accepted by BATFE?
3. Did the 01 have any motivation to avoid booking the gun?
The buyer/collector who is interested in antique firearms but nervous about whether a gun qualifies, can easily give himself a safe harbor by maintaining an 03 license. And, if I were such a hobbyist, I would do so.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 19, 2006
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Bill –
I interpreted an aspect of Ian’s question pertaining to the scenario where a collector (no 01 or 03 license) receives a rifle at his home and that rifle is purported to be an antique – and it turns out not to be. Specifically, would a statute of limitations come into play here? Which, if there were a specific year statute of limitation, there might be no reason to look at it from any other perspective.
January 20, 2023
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steve004 said
Bill –I interpreted an aspect of Ian’s question pertaining to the scenario where a collector (no 01 or 03 license) receives a rifle at his home and that rifle is purported to be an antique – and it turns out not to be. Specifically, would a statute of limitations come into play here? Which, if there were a specific year statute of limitation, there might be no reason to look at it from any other perspective.
Steve, It’s just not that simple. Yes, there is a federal statute of limitations that generally requires the government to bring GCA 68 charges by indictment or information within five years from the date the crime was committed. HOWEVER, there are circumstances under which limitations does not.start to run until the crime is discovered, such as if the defendant actively tries to conceal the crime or otherwise obstructs an investigation. Whatever that means. Also, If the chargeable conduct can be deemed continuing, limitations can be tolled. There are other exceptions.
He who seeks to rely on a statute of limitations defense needs to understand it is very fact-intensive. The hypothetical set of facts you propose leaves far too many questions unanswered to get a bright-line answer.
As unappetizing as it may seem, persons who seek to continually acquire or dispose of firearms, particularly in interstate commerce, with or without a federal license, enter a World where there are few bright-line answers.
If you want to be absolutely certain that every transaction in which you buy a firearm, whether it is modern, a curio or relic, or an antique, is inarguably, unprosecutably legal — buy only from an 01 dealer and complete and sign a 4759. Even in this instance make sure it’s not an NFA firearm.
If you want to be sure to that same extent about selling a firearm, of any status, get an 01 license, clear the sale and book it, or do the transfer through the Buyer’s 01.
Or take up flower arrangement as a hobby instead.
As a reasonable and practical matter, what we as non-01 licensee collectors must do is:
Educate ourselves about applicable firearms laws and stay current.
If we want to buy or sell other than through an 01 FFL, particularly in Interstate commerce, we must be very careful and think about whether what we are about to do is legal. When in doubt, book it through an 01.
If we are buying regularly in interstate commerce — for example at shows where the jurisdiction does not require all transactions be booked through an 01 dealer, strongly consider getting and using an 03 C&R for eligible firearms, including questionable antiques.
If we are selling regularly and at increasing volume in interstate commerce, particularly if buying for eventual resale, think carefully whether we should get an 01 license.
This is just my opinion but, in the same way qualifying and maintaining a license to carry is reassuring to most law enforcement officers, a C&R can demonstrate, at least to the fair-minded, that we are probably not a charter member.of a Klavern nor otherwise well known for the wrong reasons to the high sheriff of our county. A plus when trying to decide what to think about us.
All law enforcement is selective. The cost of any investigation to an innocent subject can be painful.to devastating, even if it results in exoneration or at least no further action. Propriety is important but so is the appearance of propriety because it saves the fair-minded and experienced investigator time and money better spent pursuing the not-so-innocent.
A C&R saves the subject collector from being a complete unknown to an investigator and likely predisposes the investigator to at least a neutral opinion of the subject until further information, good or bad, becomes available.
Listen to the voice of your conscience. If you think you just might be cutting things a little close … book the transaction. Your Trog ancestor used these same “eyes in the back of his head” to avoid becoming a Sabertooth tiger’s lunch.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
March 6, 2011
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This thread has over 900 views. If someone is interested, they could contact ATF and ask what numbers are used to determine antique status of a Winchester. And report back.
January 20, 2023
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wolfbait said
This thread has over 900 views. If someone is interested, they could contact ATF and ask what numbers are used to determine antique status of a Winchester. And report back.
I detect a note of sarcasm. Obviously a number of people are interested, so l will write to them and ask the question. Before I mail the letter, I’ll post the draft here and ask for criticism so we can all be on the same page.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 19, 2006
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Bill – thanks for the interesting and informative response. It makes perfect sense that it’s, “not that simple.”
It appears this is an interesting subject for many. I’m someone who strives toward clarity and it seems we’ve had decades where clarity could have been in greater supply.
December 9, 2002
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wolfbait said
This thread has over 900 views. If someone is interested, they could contact ATF and ask what numbers are used to determine antique status of a Winchester. And report back.
That sounds simple enough, but my late Father in Law had an FFL, and was classified a basemen/kitchen table FFL firearms owner, and with the play on words, as gets done more times than not, probably rightfully so. After many phone calls, and many different answers from our ATF, it wasn’t that simple. Sure things change as do times, and from then, until now, there’s a difference. I agree, but I feel this is a very informative thread!
My Two Cents!
Anthony
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