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November 7, 2015
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Check out these Browning “Model 1878’s” being offered by RIA tomorrow. Actually three lots; 3044, 3045, 3046. Will need to make a point of looking them over tomorrow before the sale.
Mike
April 15, 2005
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Those rifles are the holy grail so to speak.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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Hard to imagine three in one place. Must admit I missed them during the preview day. I’ll make amends tomorrow!
Mike
April 15, 2005
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TXGunNut said
Hard to imagine three in one place. Must admit I missed them during the preview day. I’ll make amends tomorrow!Mike
Approximately 10-12 years ago, there was a fellow at the Cody show that had (10) of them in his display… I spent more time than usual standing there looking at them
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
December 9, 2002
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I have to agree with Bert, on those being the so called “Holy Grail”, in Single Shots. Three in one place is pretty interesting, but for Bert to view more than that at Cody is simply amazing to me. Many of us understand and know the Winchester Browning story on the S.S. rifle at it’s inception. As the Great Sharps S.S. rifles we’re being used on the plains at those times, and mainly earlier, the falling block rifle design intrigues me also.
Mike we’re enjoying you’re stories and reporting back from the Auction.
Thanks,
Anthony
October 29, 2011
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Interesting…The 40-70 WCF was introduced by Winchester in 1894, Did another manufacturer introduce 40-70 sooner? Bill
July 31, 2005
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426crown said
Interesting…The 40-70 WCF was introduced by Winchester in 1894, Did another manufacturer introduce 40-70 sooner? Bill
Bill,
There was .40-70 Sharps in both bottleneck and straight variations. These were introduced in the 1870’s.
Bill
I call myself a collector as it sounds better than hoarder
November 19, 2006
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I’ve been looking over Lot 3044 (.45-70 with some very nice blue). That piece speaks to me!
March 31, 2009
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Bert H. said
TXGunNut said
Hard to imagine three in one place. Must admit I missed them during the preview day. I’ll make amends tomorrow!
Mike
Approximately 10-12 years ago, there was a fellow at the Cody show that had (10) of them in his display… I spent more time than usual standing there looking at them
Farther back than that maybe mid to late 90’s when we were in the gym across the street from the Museum there was a display of at least a half dozen. Up to that point I’m not sure I had ever seen one.
December 9, 2002
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At one point I owned this Browning S.S. Rifle, serial number #196, (stamped on the top flat, and on the right side flat), and that’s displayed on the Browning search page, found under “Browning history timeline”.
An enjoyable, and historical piece, that was used as intended, and as a tool of the time, in .50 caliber, with a longer than average barrel, 32 inches, and the Octagon barrel measured 1 1/4 at the muzzle. The rear sight was interesting in itself as it measured, slightly over 4 inches long, with the elevator/riser missing, and an older piece of walnut made wood riser in it’s place,(possibly a Fruend made rear sight). With the Borchard style lever, and showing the weakness, in the original design in the wrist, as a crack/split in the stock at the wrist is evident. With the Thick side receiver, that is also desirable, to many S.S. Collectors, including myself.
An important piece in the timeline as one of the first Browning S.S. Rifles in the less than approximately 600 mfg. with serial number 547, being the latest found, to my knowledge. With less than 100 in existence, some experts predict possibly less than 50 have survived to date.
This was the result of JMB, first patent among 128 patents.
Anthony
November 7, 2015
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One of our members from Utah won lot #3045 but the other two were purchased by online or phone bidders. All three seemed to be in well used but good and serviceable condition. Lot 3045 was my personal favorite but 3044 was probably the most historically significant and desireable of the three.
Mike
April 15, 2005
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I am of the belief that at least 100 of the original Browning Single Shot rifles still exist. Many of them are locked up in collections that do not, or very seldom ever see the sight of day. In my personal travels over the past 45-years, I have personally encountered and seen at least (50) of them. The lowest serial number I have documented in my research files is # 88, with # 536 as the highest number.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
December 9, 2002
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You’re a good reliable source of information, Bert. IMO!
I’ve always been intrigued with them, and their development, and have had a preference of a few over some others when they become available for viewing.
Anthony
November 19, 2006
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Anthony said
An enjoyable, and historical piece, that was used as intended, and as a tool of the time, in .50 caliber, with a longer than average barrel, 32 inches, and the Octagon barrel measured 1 1/4 at the muzzle. The rear sight was interesting in itself as it measured, slightly over 4 inches long, with the elevator/riser missing, and an older piece of walnut made wood riser in it’s place,(possibly a Fruend made rear sight). With the Borchard style lever, and showing the weakness, in the original design in the wrist, as a crack/split in the stock at the wrist is evident. With the Thick side receiver, that is also desirable, to many S.S. Collectors, including myself.
An important piece in the timeline as one of the first Browning S.S. Rifles in the less than approximately 600 mfg. with serial number 547, being the latest found, to my knowledge. With less than 100 in existence, some experts predict possibly less than 50 have survived to date.
This was the result of JMB, first patent among 128 patents.
Anthony
That’s a rare rifle to have owned. Do we know how many are known to have been in .50 caliber?
Edit/add: do we know if there are specimens in various .50 calibers – e.g. .50-90, .50-110, .50-140 and so on?
December 9, 2002
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I agree with you Steve, and others, that any of these first Browning S.S. Rifles can be put into the hard to find and even the, “Rare”, category, in any condition.
As far as knowing how many we’re produced in each caliber, I’m not aware of any records that we’re kept by the Browning Brothers, in Ogden, Utah, as it’s our understanding they had their hands full keeping up with orders, in the small shop of about 5 or 6 people, mostly made up of the Browning Brothers.
The resources weren’t available to house records as we know Winchester did on a larger basis. The other thing to consider in you’re question that you asked involves a couple very important variables, that factor in. Black Powder, Smokeless Powder, the competition of the other similar Falling Block action, and the plains rifles available, as far as eradicating the Buffalo from the plains, as other manufacturers we’re providing their versions of high power rifles. Several calibers we’re being used, at the time by other manufacturers. With the black powder cartridge being used, in paper patched bullets, mainly in the Sharps Rifle of the plains,also in the falling block action, in the various larger calibers. By 1880 most of the great Buffalo herds we’re gone, and even though sparse smaller herds of buffalo still roamed, by 1884, most of the buffalo hunting was coming to an end.
Bill Hockett said
426crown said
Interesting…The 40-70 WCF was introduced by Winchester in 1894, Did another manufacturer introduce 40-70 sooner? Bill
Bill,
There was .40-70 Sharps in both bottleneck and straight variations. These were introduced in the 1870’s.
Bill
I also agree with both 426crown, and Bill, as far as the inception of the calibers that we’re mentioned. In addition, but not limited to these calibers only used, in the Browning S.S. Rifle, the 40-70 was also created by other manufactures. (1880, 40-70 Rem.),(1881, 40-70 Ballard),(1882, 40-70 Maynard).
Steve,
In all reality. The sharps rifle company had a .50 caliber cartridge, 2 1/2 inches long, that they introduced in 1872, known as, “The BIG 50”, in 50-90, 50-100, and 50-110. Bullet weight varied. This is probably the cartridge, most likely, used in the design of the B.S.S. rifle in question. I did not measure the chamber on this rifle when I owned it. Further causing speculation in my own mind now. In 1880, Sharps also made a .50-140, in a paper patched cartridge,(3 1/4 IN. long), but I don’t think that’s what J.M.B. had in mind for this .50 caliber rifle. Other .50 calibers come to mind, but I really believe, being out west, and designing a falling block action, compared to the falling block action Sharps, already on the market in various models, and with the great Buffalo herds of the nearby plains, this was his intent. (Purely speculation) IMO!
Anthony
April 15, 2005
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The majority of the Browning Single Shot rifles I have encountered and documented were chambered for the 45-70 or 40-70 Sharps. That stated, I believe that each rifle was built for a specific customer, and that the Browning Brothers shop would manufacture the rifles in any available cartridge of that time period. I suspect that any of their rifles found in .50 caliber were made for the 50-70 Government cartridge.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
December 9, 2002
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Thanks Bert, as the 50-70 government cartridge, well known as the first official government contract issued by the U.S. was well used in the Trapdoor Springfield’s, as you’re well aware of, also a few other rifles of the time, and that was the cartridge that I was wondering about. I did go back into my notes as I have a hard wood block of 50 on my bench and I did measure, fit and try those in there years ago. I guess CRS, is working well, again.
Thanks for the memory refresh!
Anthony
November 19, 2006
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Tony –
So are you thinking the one you had was chambered in .50-70?
December 9, 2002
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Steve,
YES! I went back through my notes, as Bert’s comments sparked something in my old memory, and it was bothering me, and I went back through my information folder on that particular Browning S.S. Rifle, that I had, and in my notes, I had the dates, as I always do from four years ago, as I checked the chamber on the back end of the barrel, and having a large thick Black Walnut block on my bench with 50 vintage cartridges in pre drilled holes from a past owner, I was able to verify that it definitely is a .50-70 Govt. cartridge, as Bert suggested with his wisdom, and not any of the other .50 caliber cartridges of the time, including the .50-70 U.S. carbine cartridge, which was a shorter, in length cartridge.
It is my opinion, Bert Hartman, is a foremost authority on the Winchester model 1885 S.S. rifle, as his interest in that area, due to his love for those are no secret, and the development in regarding, the Winchester S.S. starts with the first patent that Winchester bought from, J.M.B. is well documented. Not to mention Bert’s valuable research and survey studies, that is constantly being done, here on the forum, as other good members are constantly doing. I tip my hat to all of them, as it’s helped all of us tremendously!
Anthony
November 7, 2015
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Bert H. said
The majority of the Browning Single Shot rifles I have encountered and documented were chambered for the 45-70 or 40-70 Sharps. That stated, I believe that each rifle was built for a specific customer, and that the Browning Brothers shop would manufacture the rifles in any available cartridge of that time period. I suspect that any of their rifles found in .50 caliber were made for the 50-70 Government cartridge.Bert
Interesting, was not aware the 40-70 was a popular chambering for these “Model 1878’s”. I thought most were 45-70. The 50-70 is a bit puzzling but there may have been a bit of surplus military 50-70 ammo available to keep those big girls fed.
The “Model 1878” tag is amusing to me because the Single Shot Bert advised me on a few years back was identified as a Model 1879. I like the simplicity of “Single Shot”. Good enough for JMB and Winchesters, good enough for me!
Mike
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