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Hello all.
I am beginning to think they should rename this place “Ripped In A**” !!! I was looking to add Model 1892 rifles into my survey and came across these two gems. 1. Supposedly SN 9563 being offered as a custom engraved gun with an opening bid of $7500. You can see in the photos that the Model designation is on the left side of the barrel which is a late feature and the tang designation is a style 6 type, also a very late feature. But take a REAL close look at the SN photo and you can see that the first and last digits of the original 6 digit serial number have ALMOST be totally obliterated. I believe the original number was 995634. You can just barely see the hint of both the first and last digit showing through the engraving. 2. Is supposedly SN 331 and listed as a “Rare Early Production Winchester Model 1892 Musket.” The problem is that SN 331 is a OB 44 WCF sporting rifle when you check with Cody!! It is amazing that an auction house can uncaringly represent items for auction and hide behind the caveat of we only present what we are told. That is a mighty thin veil to hide behind. Make certain you do all the homework you can before you bid on anything.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Michael,
For the exact reason you pointed out, I personally refuse to do business with them. Apparently, it is all about the almighty $, and screw any ethics. It does not help that their so called “expert” appraiser is a total idiot. In my humble opinion, any self respecting auction house should be a member of the Cody Firearms Museum, and provide research sheets or factory letters for all firearms that can be verified.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Wouldn’t altering a firearm’s serial number be illegal? Is possession of a firearm with an altered serial number illegal?
1badf350 said
Wouldn’t altering a firearm’s serial number be illegal? Is possession of a firearm with an altered serial number illegal?
Yes, altering the serial number is an illegal act.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
There is very little doubt that there is a “9” and a “4” hidden in the scroll work.
It is always wise to be just a little paranoid on high end guns.
One of the tricks I have used for many many years is to simply use my 10X loop on the computer screen as I surf for prizes or should I say surprises :), you don’t need to go to all the trouble of picture enhancement to spot most undesirables.
Thanks for posting
Vern
Vern,
No need to use a loop with a computer. Just right click the image and select “View Image” then you zoom in and out by holding the “Ctrl” button down and then hit either “+” or “-” I know it works with FireFox.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
Vern,
No need to use a loop with a computer. Just right click the image and select “View Image” then you zoom in and out by holding the “Ctrl” button down and then hit either “+” or “-” I know it works with FireFox.
Bob
My “Loop” is pretty jealous right now 
All these years of doing it the hard way and all I needed to do was press “Ctrl +”
Geeeeeeee!!! ( big laugh)
thanks
Vern
Vern
Your external magnification idea has some merit , as depending on the Pic , sometimes when I use my Ctrl + , it gets very blurry. I guess it really depends of the quality of the Pic?
Phil
Obviously, RIA appears to be corrupt. How about the other big name auction houses–James Julia, Cowan’s/Little Richard’s, Morphy’s, etc., etc.?
Good eyes. I probably wouldnt have paid it any mind due to the non-factory engraving. Too bad that it seems each auction, or every other one, there seems to be a problem with something being faked. I dont have a problem with fakes, I have a problem with fakes that are advertised as factory original.
Question regarding altered serial numbers: if its illegal to own a firearm in which the serial number has been altered, what are we to do with all the “WRACO” stamped Winchesters? 
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
mrcvs said
Obviously, RIA appears to be corrupt. How about the other big name auction houses–James Julia, Cowan’s/Little Richard’s, Morphy’s, etc., etc.?
They are in the business of selling, nothing more nothing less, something to keep in mind when we come across things like this. When pressed most will retract an item/ description but only when pressed hard to do so. Is that being corrupt? Maybe, but it’s very very common.
It’s the uninformed that make this all possible: As collectors we make up only a very small portion of perspective buyers, the auction houses can and do basically ignore us.
“Pretty” sells and it always has, the other part is greed. There are some rather rich buyers out there who acquire guns, they are not true collectors as we think of them but they do push the market and some even acquire the status of “informed” collector because of the volume of guns they posses. I doubt that some even know what end the bullet comes out of, sad but very true.
It takes time to learn about any subject, Winchesters included.
Collectors Need to Protect Collectors- no one else will!
Have a great day!
Vern
Bottom line is that the auction company works for the seller. Their job is to get the most money for the seller’s stuff.
There are little keywords that the auction houses use that tells the buyer to take a closer look:
Custom engraved = not factory engraved
Factory style engraving= not factory engraved.
Factory style finish = refinished/restored.
There are quite a few more, if you plan on buying from auctions, it might be a good idea to learn them. And learn what original finishes look like.
As to the removal of the serial number, that is a really grey area. The GCA of 1969 mandated that firearms manufactured after the adoption of the 1968 GCA will have a serial number. Removal of these serial numbers is a felony.
Firearms manufactured prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968 are exempt from having a serial number. So is the removal and or defacing of a serial number on a firearm that was never legally required to have a serial number illegal?
Respectfully
Mike Hunter
I had a bad experience with RIA a while back. If you can’t trust them to describe & photograph properly and then stand behind their descriptions then you just can’t do business with them.
As I recall, did the the owner of RIA spent some “time away from home” for some past auctions?
Walter
Having read all of the responses on this article, I am first of all inclined to agree that personal inspection is a must when dealing with any of these type auctions. I have found that RIA relies on their customers to describe and provide any provenance when they bring something in to sell. If any collectors then find fault with what is shown, I feel it becomes imperative that whatever the fault is then needs to be shared with RIA. I did that a year or so ago with what appeared to be a fabulous engraved 71 only to find issues/faults with it and they were most willing to listen to my arguments and critiques. The gun ended up being withdrawn from the auction and as far as I can tell hasn’t shown up anywhere else.
Thus, should you feel this gun isn’t proper, or that gun isn’t proper, and can provide RIA with your proof, you will be doing collectors all across the USA a huge favor in helping keep this clean, honest and proper. By my way of thinking, we, as collectors, should be the ones helping the auction houses out when “problem items” come up for auction.
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