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I found my father’s old ’94 and am working on a restoration as it was damaged in a basement flood. The rear sight is broken, rust every wear except the barrel. Question is a found in the box a Winchester Smokeless 32WS Rear Sight that appears to fit the carbine. From my basic research this was an option(?) during the early 1900’s. It is a carbine SRC 32WS, would it be good to put this sight on it. I know it will never be perfect, but all in all, having to repair and/or replace most of the stock. is this a good direction?
Sure, go ahead and install the 32WS Smokeless Sight,
They were a option that could be ordered from the factory,
After all it is a 32WS SRC.
"I Would Have Rather Lived Through The Industrial Revaluation"
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One more quick question. The picture below is the butt plate and stock from the carbine.
Is it original?
PA1911A1 said
One more quick question. The picture below is the butt plate and stock from the carbine.Is it original?
Possibly, but it would have been a special order.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thank you Bert, that helps in my research. I have contacted the folks over at Cody to see what other information I might find.
For the 94 with that style of buttstock the buttplate should be smooth steel (not checked) or it could have been the hard rubber style. The buttplate you have there would have originally gone on a Model 64. The buttstock looks right for a carbine. It should have the inlet at the top of the comb. Ive owned several carbines that have the same shotgun butt style, the earlier ones have the slick steel buttplate, the later ones the hard rubber buttplate.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
1892takedown said
For the 94 with that style of buttstock the buttplate should be smooth steel (not checked) or it could have been the hard rubber style. The buttplate you have there would have originally gone on a Model 64. The buttstock looks right for a carbine. It should have the inlet at the top of the comb. Ive owned several carbines that have the same shotgun butt style, the earlier ones have the slick steel buttplate, the later ones the hard rubber buttplate.
Chris,
The smooth steel shotgun butt is more common than the checkered steel butt plate, but both were special order options for the early Model 1894 SRCs. I have surveyed a fair number of them thus far. The checkered steel butt plate originated with the Model 1887 lever-action shotgun, and was next used on the Model 1897 Slide-action shotguns beginning in late 1903. At that time, it became an optional (special order) butt plate for several models (e.g. 1885, 1886, and 1894). In early 1906, Winchester ceased using it as a standard butt plate on the Model 1897 (hard rubber became standard), but continued to offer it as a special order item. In 1933, it was adopted as the standard butt plate for the Model 64 and Model 65, and it replaced the serrated steel butt plate on the Model 54. When the Model 71 was introduced in late 1935, it too was standard with the checkered steel butt plate, and finally, when the Model 70 was introduced in 1936, it also featured the same butt plate.
The point I am making, is not to discount a Winchester just because it has a checkered steel butt plate on it… it very well may be factory original.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks for the info Bert. Ive just not seen this style of buttplate on a 94 SB carbine. Maybe I should get out more
If by chance you you come across one in an auction listing or have pics, shoot them over, Id like to see one.
After looking at a couple of Model 87 buttplates vs. Model 64 buttplates there appears to be a difference in the checking border at the top of the buttplate (1887 more rounded at the top corners, M64 more of a “V”shape) and the length or depth of the metal below the top screw hole is slightly longer on the M64. Or they are the same and its just my failing eyes
.The buttplate captioned in the post above looks like the M 1887 pattern.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Chris,
Because I was curious, I counted how many of them that I have surveyed, and found 29 of them in my spreadsheet. Thus far, I have surveyed 12,173 Carbines.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Interesting Bert. What percentage of shotgun buttplates do the checked steel comprise?
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
1892takedown said
Interesting Bert. What percentage of shotgun buttplates do the checked steel comprise?
Chis,
My survey covers all Carbines in the 354000 – 2600011 serial number range. During that long run, Winchester used three different “standard” butt plates, and four different special order butt plates. I have not yet attempted to break out the butt plate type by percentage. What I can tell you, is that the hard rubber butt plate is by far the most common. In my survey of the special order Model 1894/94s that have a fluted comb butt stock, I have broken them down by butt plate type as follows;
| Butt Plates | Qty. | % |
| Hard Rubber | 107 | 58.79% |
| Red Rubber Recoil Pad | 2 | 1.10% |
| Serrated Steel | 45 | 24.73% |
| Smooth Steel | 26 | 14.29% |
| M1897 Checkered Steel | 2 | 1.10% |
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks for the response Bert. Im still not 100% convinced the 1887 or 1897 shotgun buttplate was used on 1892 or 1894 shotgun buttstocks from the factory, but hold to the time honored approach of never saying never. As you said, they were offered on special order so there is a potential for them to occur. If they did make an appearance I would expect them to make an appearance in the early 1892/1894 production and then later–at the introduction of the Model 64, or as a result of a buttplate replacement due to breakage of an original hard rubber buttplate. Ive sold a number of M64/M70 buttplates that folks attached to a 92 or 94 buttstock because the hard rubber one was broken.
In the examples above with the fluted comb, the recoil pad and checked buttplates are a fairly small percentage in the batch–not discounting them but they could almost be considered statistical outliers. But in this game called Winchester outliers hold some weight because we know of examples of guns that are 1 of 1 made or 1 of X type examples made. Going to have to study up a little more on the fluted comb examples, the ones I have encountered on the 92 or 94 dont have the inlet or “rollover” at the top of the stock but are flat, of the hard rubber type early on when SB/fluted combs make their appearance, and then later with the serrated or smooth steel styles. Maybe Michael can chime in here regarding the 1892’s and what he has seen in his survey–I would assume that if they were available for the 1885, 1886, and 1894’s they would also be found on the 1892’s.
Great discussion Bert. Your still going to have to convince me with some unmolested examples. You know how the saying goes “You can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink” Well, sometimes you have to lead that horse into the water and if the waters good, sooner or later he’ll take a drink.
Chris
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Chris,
The next one I find in an online auction, I will post it here.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Chris,
I have come across a few on Model 1892 carbines but I am too busy fishing to look at my data to find them. They are definitely an uncommon occurrence.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Here is a quick photo of the carbine. Missing ring for the Saddle Ring but I will eventually find it or one.
I had a half magazine, shotgun butt 1894 carbine of similar vintage that lettered as such and it had an identical checkered steel butt plate.
Though it is the only checkered one I’ve seen in an older 1894. All the others were smooth or hard rubber. It was in the 350,000 range and also had the wrong patent date as was common in that range from what I’ve read. I am convinced it was genuine.
Mike,
I am sure that it was factory original. Any chance that you still have a record of the serial number?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Pretty sure it was 350,055 but I will double check as I sold it to a friend.
Just received my letter from the Cody Firearms Records Office and they provide me the records they have and that the rifle was received by the warehouse in March 15, 1907 with a Shotgun Butt.
I found a 1907 Winchester catalog and the shotgun butt stock was an option. The 32WS sight was shipped as standard equipment in 1907 on the Model 94 rifle.
Thank you all for your help.
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