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Robert Drummond Jr said
Not familiar with the gun laws in CA but the gun laws are changing all the time and in every state and at the federal level too. The form 4473 changed in I think Jan 23 and there is another change coming up soon this year. I live in New England and both MA and VT have both changed laws. Although the FFL doing a 4473 on an antique might seem over the top the ammo availability is something that is getting put on the books. Although I don’t agree with it I really don’t blame the FFL he is just covering his butt and probably wants to stay in business. With the availability of 44-40 being what it is lately one could argue about whether that ammo is still commercially available. But if the shop is dependent on firearms sales and is still selling in CA in todays environment I wouldn’t be too hard on him. I have a friend who is an FFL who has an FFL friend that recently had an onsite unannounced inspection by the ATF which lasted a few days and they went over everything. I bet that issue of ammo would be something that the ATF would look at especially in CA.Rob
Rob,
I will respectfully disagree with you. The BATF is a Federal entity, and as such that do not inspect or enforce CA State laws & regulations concerning firearms and ammo issues. By law, they can only inspect and enforce the Federal laws & regulations for firearms sales.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert, hasn’t the comment about the ammo been in the Federal law for some years? Seems to me it has.
Chuck said
Bert, hasn’t the comment about the ammo been in the Federal law for some years? Seems to me it has.
The comment about ammo in the Federal Code pertains to modern reproductions of antique firearms. It does not apply to any truly “antique” firearm.
For the edification of all who may read this;
Per U.S. Code Title 18, Part I, Chapter 44, Section §921, paragraph (16), an “Antique” firearm is defined as follows;
(16) The term “antique firearm” means—
“(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.”
This is legal definition that the BATF must abide by. Kommiefornia can enact their own restrictions, but they are not enforceable by any Federal law enforcement agencies including the BATF.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert,
You are correct and in my comment I should have made it clear about differences between Federal and state regulations. This is a subject I actually had a recent discussion with an ATF agent and he said that same thing about modern reproductions and antiques that you did. My original point perhaps not clearly made was the laws change all the time both Federal and state and it is up to the FFL, wherever he is doing business, to know what the law means. Many FFL’s exclude selling to CA, IL, NY, MD and a few others because of their state laws regarding guns. Fortunately, where I live in NH the laws fairly follow Federal and isn’t as dubious as it is in MA right next door.
Rob
Hello as a LONG time FFL licensee that deals so much with antique rifles Bert hit the nail on the head! Antique is antique and not regulated. But just be absolutely sure of the manufacturing date!!!! So when you’re dealing with Winchester from the turn of the century do not go by one of the published books. And NEVER by what some guy told you!!!! I have twice just this last week had people say my Winchester was made in 18– and I go straight to our resources tab and say “sorry but it was made in ——— —. Go off the “resource” here on our web site “When was your Winchester made” or get a letter from Cody!
I would like to bring the discussion back to reloading if you gentleman do not mind.
Lots of great information already written and without belaboring the point too much…. so we know the 44 WCF (44-40 for those that came in late like marlin) is a .427 groove dimension barrel. The old school of thought is (as I and others here have said) is .002” larger for lead bullets IS CORRECT. Here is the only thing I wish to really add. People have touched on it here but I didn’t see an explanation as to why or how.
Bullets need to be soft but hard. I know that sounds contradictory but it isn’t. I keep my loads following the same original bullet design, weight, and velocities as the original loads.
I mentioned I use a 12 BNH lead bullet. Why? did I pull that number out thin air or is it a guess? No actually it is an exact formula! Bullets need to do something called obterate. When the obterate they actually “squish” under the pressure from the gasses of the propellant used. When bullets properly obturate they sealing the gas behind the bullet in the barrel. If bullets are too hard the gas cuts right past the bullet, melting the bullet as it goes by and leading the barrel. If the bullets obturate properly the gas is just pushing the bullet and like magic no leading. The proper harness lets the bullet grab the rifling and get the proper spin for the weight and design of the bullet.
This is true in Winchesters and even more important in revolvers.
to find out what BNH you need it is a simple formula.
Optimum BHN = PSI / (1422 x .90)
if you need help figuring out how to use the formula Missouri Bullet company has a technical tab and if you click on it they give some very nice examples of how the formula works.
I really hope this helps answer some questions.
Yes the formula requires you to do some homework figure out PSI but most can be found in reloading manuals etc but it is well worth the little extra work getting a proper diameter bullet that seals correctly and that helps become a nice accurate bullet from our old lever actions! There is a great sense of pride we all have to be able to shoot accurately while having a functioning work of art!!!!!
enjoy.
WACA Member
Colt Collectors Association Member
Buffalo Bill Center of the West Member
Sam –
VERY educational. Thank you. I’ve been handloading for over 40 years. Posts like yours make me feel like I just started yesterday. But, that’s a good thing of course 
Sam Walker said
Bullets need to be soft but hard. I know that sounds contradictory but it isn’t.
Wasn’t contradictory in the heyday of muzzle-loading bench-rest rifles (“slug-guns”), because two-piece composite bullets were in common use. These had a base section of pure lead & a nose of hardened lead, both parts always swaged after being cast. Practice died out after breech-loaders replaced muzzle-loaders in match shooting.
I mentioned this before to the surprise of many, but the alloy recommended in the 1890 Ideal Handbook was FIFTY to one! Have to remember that many ordinary shooters (not target shooters) were still casting with pure lead at the time.
I have gotten completely away from commercial “Hard cast” bullets. I had all kinds of problems with leading and accuracy. I cast all my own now, mainly in 20-1 and 30-1. All my previous problems went away. Of course, I’m not pushing these bullets hard, just hitting original velocities..
Brooksy said
I have gotten completely away from commercial “Hard cast” bullets. I had all kinds of problems with leading and accuracy. I cast all my own now, mainly in 20-1 and 30-1. All my previous problems went away. Of course, I’m not pushing these bullets hard, just hitting original velocities..
I don’t cast my own bullets and am not going to start at this point in life. Who are some suppliers of soft cast bullets?
Check out Missouri Bullet company, there is a Montana Bullet manufacturer I can’t recall the name off the top of my head but never used them so far.
I have tried several bullet manufacturers over the years and yes have cast my own. I just don’t have time to do everything anymore. I have so many projects; my Winchester barrel manufacturing is eating up massive amounts of time, just getting it set up roll stamps ordered, then proofed and then set up. Then get the roll stamp machine running tested then start producing the markings on the barrels I make, then I have my main staple of customers restorations, I must keep to a schedule. So I just started shopping for bullets.
I use Missouri bullets company because as long as I buy a certain amount, they will make me almost anything I need. Example I make custom 1892 Winchesters and Ruger old model flat tops in 41 Special. No that isn’t a typo. I push my bullets to special velocities. I am NOT trying to recreate the 41 magnum. Meaning 750-900 fps. Missouri bullet company makes a Keith bullet they called the trooper for 41 Magnum. That runs 18 BNH that hardness is great for a 41 mag running 1,300-1,400 fps. But for a special velocity it would never obturate. So they will make a run at 12 BNH if I order 2 boxes minimum. So Missouri Bullet company works with me a LOT! I literally have thousands of their bullets. So that is where I shop for bullets. hope that helps.
WACA Member
Colt Collectors Association Member
Buffalo Bill Center of the West Member
steve004 said
Sam –VERY educational. Thank you. I’ve been handloading for over 40 years. Posts like yours make me feel like I just started yesterday. But, that’s a good thing of course
Steve I am willing to share my knowledge anytime. However I don’t know it all ….. like Bert and I were discussing yesterday, WE BOTH ARE ALWAYS LEARNING EVERYDAY!!!! We learn about our favorite subject Winchester rifles authenticity, about ways to duplicate exactly what Winchester did (best we can), reloading, forming brass, the list goes on! No one stops learning… unless we are dead!
One of the reasons I do like this forum I learn stuff all the time too!!!!! Lots of knowledgeable people here.
I am very grateful for the knowledge that is passed on this forum.
Sam
WACA Member
Colt Collectors Association Member
Buffalo Bill Center of the West Member
steve004 said
I don’t cast my own bullets and am not going to start at this point in life. Who are some suppliers of soft cast bullets?
Buy a swaging machine; expensive but clean & safe.
I’m pondering some variables involved with selecting the best bullets. We know groove diameters vary, which why the specific groove diameter of the rifle involved is an important variable. In addition, bore condition matters. Brooksy for example, will only buy rifles with nice bores. This was a strong preference for Mike Venturino as well. In my case, many of my rifles were purchased primarily as a collector item. I prefer smooth, nice bores but did not automatically reject those that did not have a nice bore. Through experimentation, I learned how jacketed bullets can perform well in marginal to bad bores – where lead bullets would often not hit the target at 25 yards. I understand the value of a softer lead bullet over a hard cast bullet as it will expand to fill the bore and not let gases pass by. But, is softer lead more likely to catch on roughness/pitting in a bore?
Sam Walker said
steve004 said
Sam –
VERY educational. Thank you. I’ve been handloading for over 40 years. Posts like yours make me feel like I just started yesterday. But, that’s a good thing of course
Steve I am willing to share my knowledge anytime. However I don’t know it all ….. like Bert and I were discussing yesterday, WE BOTH ARE ALWAYS LEARNING EVERYDAY!!!! We learn about our favorite subject Winchester rifles authenticity, about ways to duplicate exactly what Winchester did (best we can), reloading, forming brass, the list goes on! No one stops learning… unless we are dead!
One of the reasons I do like this forum I learn stuff all the time too!!!!! Lots of knowledgeable people here.
I am very grateful for the knowledge that is passed on this forum.
Sam
Sam – exactly why I hang out here as well! I am very appreciative of your input and the input of others.
Steve, without going into a huge discussion about bullet selection and rifling, which is way too much for a forum post. For Winchester calibers and lever guns I really go back to what did they do back then. Does the bullet design and weight match the twist rate?
There are excellent books on the subject of bullet selection etc . I love Bryan Litz books “Applied Ballistics for long range shooting”. You say what does long range shooting have to do with Winchester open sight ranges? If I can learn the science behind long range shooting, I can take the same science, formulas and tools used in long range shooting and apply them to short or medium range lead or jacketed bullets.
for bores that are very rough even jacketed bullets will shed portions of copper in them. Take a rough barrel and fire lap them or just lap them. That takes the roughness out. You don’t want to get carried away but lap them. Then you won’t be shedding jacket or lead. On the roughest of bores you will minimize the shedding.
hope that helps answer your questions.
WACA Member
Colt Collectors Association Member
Buffalo Bill Center of the West Member
Sam, you have your work cut out for you after that last statement. Been trying to get some of these guys to adopted some of the newer techniques for a while now.
I have never lapped a bore. Something for me to expand my knowledge of.
What’s the opinion on linotype cast lead bullets? I notice a have a supply here of about 500 of them – in .375. They are 249 grain. I purchased them from a small-time cast bullet maker.
November 7, 2015
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steve004 said
I have never lapped a bore. Something for me to expand my knowledge of.What’s the opinion on linotype cast lead bullets? I notice a have a supply here of about 500 of them – in .375. They are 249 grain. I purchased them from a small-time cast bullet maker.
Linotype lead is an excellent source of tin and antimony. Linotype bullets are mostly good for pushing the boundaries of cast bullets but they must be sized to fit the bore. Linotype is very hard to find these days, most casters wanting the characteristics of Linotype mix their own alloy. IIRC the BHN of Linotype is 22. As mentioned above 12 BHN is pretty much ideal for our old Winchesters.
Mike
November 7, 2015
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Chuck said
Sam, you have your work cut out for you after that last statement. Been trying to get some of these guys to adopted some of the newer techniques for a while now.
Chuck-
As you know I’ve been using techniques developed by benchrest shooters for hunting cartridges in hunting rifles and “shooters” for decades. In most cases I don’t have the skill or the hardware to take full advantage of them but with hunting ammo and other small batch projects there’s no reason to load anything but the best we can load. The cars we drive every day have many features developed in the racing world, normal guns can benefit from precision techniques.
Mike
I understand the desire to do things as Winchester did them. This makes sense – use bullets of the same composition as they did and drive them at the same velocities they drove them at. Of course, Winchester wasn’t dealing with pitted or rough bores either. And if they did, the solution was very simple – but a new barrel on.
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