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TXGunNut said
Raptor Addict-Your bullet diameter is best determined by YOUR RIFLE’S bore diameter but most commercial cast bullets run a couple thousandth’s over the nominal bore diameter of .429”. I don’t shoot the 44WCF but I have heard a few of the very early guns saw some variance in bore diameter. Haven’t been able to document that but one of the first rules of bullet casting is to measure your bore diameter.
Mike
I will definitely do this! I appreciate everyone’s insight on this. I don’t cast, but I do reload. My brother casts, so I may just have him do it. LOL! Now to measure the diameter and find out where we start.
November 7, 2015
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RaptorAddict said
TXGunNut said
Raptor Addict-
Your bullet diameter is best determined by YOUR RIFLE’S bore diameter but most commercial cast bullets run a couple thousandth’s over the nominal bore diameter of .429”. I don’t shoot the 44WCF but I have heard a few of the very early guns saw some variance in bore diameter. Haven’t been able to document that but one of the first rules of bullet casting is to measure your bore diameter.
Mike
I will definitely do this! I appreciate everyone’s insight on this. I don’t cast, but I do reload. My brother casts, so I may just have him do it. LOL! Now to measure the diameter and find out where we start.
Easiest way to slug your bore may be with the 45 caliber pure lead balls used with frontstuffers (muzzleloaders). Just roll the ball between a two pieces of heavy iron until about 44 caliber, lube it up and drive it thru your bore. Then buy a cap and ball revolver to shoot up the rest of those bullets. It will take forever to use them all up slugging barrels and we don’t want to waste them, do we?
Mike
TXGunNut said
RaptorAddict said
TXGunNut said
Raptor Addict-
Your bullet diameter is best determined by YOUR RIFLE’S bore diameter but most commercial cast bullets run a couple thousandth’s over the nominal bore diameter of .429”. I don’t shoot the 44WCF but I have heard a few of the very early guns saw some variance in bore diameter. Haven’t been able to document that but one of the first rules of bullet casting is to measure your bore diameter.
Mike
I will definitely do this! I appreciate everyone’s insight on this. I don’t cast, but I do reload. My brother casts, so I may just have him do it. LOL! Now to measure the diameter and find out where we start.
Easiest way to slug your bore may be with the 45 caliber pure lead balls used with frontstuffers (muzzleloaders). Just roll the ball between a two pieces of heavy iron until about 44 caliber, lube it up and drive it thru your bore. Then buy a cap and ball revolver to shoot up the rest of those bullets. It will take forever to use them all up slugging barrels and we don’t want to waste them, do we?
Mike
If that is a true method of doing it, then that’s what I’ll do. I was wondering how to stay away from buying a box of 44-40 bullets to only measure one piece of lead. My brother has 45 ball ammo for his Ruger Old Army. I just have to ask for one, or two. LOL! I just don’t have a front stuffer.
The 44 WCF is my favorite antique cartridge and the 41 Special my favorite modern cartridge. They are super accurate and using Starline brass the cases hold up over many firings. I load smokeless and black powder loads for my original 1873 Winchesters (I have 3 of them a first model rifle, a third model rifle, and a third model carbine) and my Colt Frontier Six shooter from 1901.
as stated earlier in this thread the bore and groove diameters did vary from time to time. However the 44 WCF is designed around a .427 grooved barrel that is for BOTH Winchesters and Colts. (Modern copies are designed around a .429 grooved barrel). And there is a huge difference in groove diameter and bore diameter!!! Not all calibers go off groove diameter some go off bore diameter.
Yes there are always exceptions in 44 WCF groove diameter barrels due to manufacturing variance and just wear, and there are people who just can’t read calipers after slugging the barrel. (Not being critical just honest). The 44 Russian, Smith and Wesson Special and magnum are all .429. I personally shoot a 12 BNH bullet of the original design for all loads. I use a 200 gr .429 lead bullet in all of my Winchesters and Colts. I use BP, Trail Boss, 700x, 800x, and unique. My go to load is Trail boss. I have several hundred rounds loaded of trail boss and 50 or so in BP with a standard large pistol primer. You can only get a max of 35 grains of BP by volume in a solid head case with a drop tube. I use 30 Grains measured by volume in mine. I agree with someone that wrote above it takes longer to clean my Colt than my Winchester after a BP shoot.
there is no danger of shooting original 1873 Winchesters in good mechanical condition with BP or smokeless loads in standard velocity ranges.
hope this helps. Sam
WACA Member
Colt Collectors Association Member
Buffalo Bill Center of the West Member
Sam Walker said
The 44 WCF is my favorite antique cartridge and the 41 Special my favorite modern cartridge. They are super accurate and using Starline brass the cases hold up over many firings. I load smokeless and black powder loads for my original 1873 Winchesters (I have 3 of them a first model rifle, a third model rifle, and a third model carbine) and my Colt Frontier Six shooter from 1901.as stated earlier in this thread the bore and groove diameters did vary from time to time. However the 44 WCF is designed around a .427 grooved barrel that is for BOTH Winchesters and Colts. (Modern copies are designed around a .429 grooved barrel). And there is a huge difference in groove diameter and bore diameter!!! Not all calibers go off groove diameter some go off bore diameter.
Yes there are always exceptions in 44 WCF groove diameter barrels due to manufacturing variance and just wear, and there are people who just can’t read calipers after slugging the barrel. (Not being critical just honest). The 44 Russian, Smith and Wesson Special and magnum are all .429. I personally shoot a 12 BNH bullet of the original design for all loads. I use a 200 gr .429 lead bullet in all of my Winchesters and Colts. I use BP, Trail Boss, 700x, 800x, and unique. My go to load is Trail boss. I have several hundred rounds loaded of trail boss and 50 or so in BP with a standard large pistol primer. You can only get a max of 35 grains of BP by volume in a solid head case with a drop tube. I use 30 Grains measured by volume in mine. I agree with someone that wrote above it takes longer to clean my Colt than my Winchester after a BP shoot.
there is no danger of shooting original 1873 Winchesters in good mechanical condition with BP or smokeless loads in standard velocity ranges.
hope this helps. Sam
This does help a lot. Thank you. I saw somewhere that after measuring the bore that I should bump up the diameter on the bullet to .001 over what I measured. True?
RaptorAddict said I saw somewhere that after measuring the bore that I should bump up the diameter on the bullet to .001 over what I measured. True?
Not something you can do before bullet is fired; comment referred to expansion of bullet caused by detonation of powder. Softer the lead, greater the expansion. Also, the faster the burn-rate of the powder, the greater the expansion, which is why BP does this better than smokeless.
clarence said
RaptorAddict said I saw somewhere that after measuring the bore that I should bump up the diameter on the bullet to .001 over what I measured. True?
Not something you can do before bullet is fired; comment referred to expansion of bullet caused by detonation of powder. Softer the lead, greater the expansion. Also, the faster the burn-rate of the powder, the greater the expansion, which is why BP does this better than smokeless.
Unless you mean by, “bump up,” should you select a larger bullet? With cast bullets, a typical recommendation is .002 over the groove diameter.
I’ve owned several original Model 1873 chambered in 44 WCF and always shoot smokeless in all of them BUT I use powders of a medium burn rate (5744 is my favorite) and I mimic original ballistics (200-grain soft cast bullet with a muzzle velocity of just over 1,300 fps as measured in my chronograph). I like to get sub-3″, five-shot groups at 100 yards and have found that sizing to .430 always worked better than .429. Stay away from hard cast bullets, as they will be more prone to lead your bore at slow velocities like 1,300 fps. Unfortunately, commercial cast bullets usually tend to be hard cast for ease and speed of casting. I cast mine out of pure clip-on wheel weights and let them air cool for a BHN of roughly 10 or 11.
What Mike said about slugging a bore with soft lead ball works great I have done that a lot. You could also use plumbers lead or even solder rod. You can shape it round with a hammer against some hard surface then keep trying it against the bore or measure it. A bag of balls isn’t that much money compared to other things (like a gallon of milk…….). You could also cast the bore too I have done both.
I reload 44-40 using Starline cases and shoot a lot of these over the years also 38-40 both black powder and smokeless in both Marlins and Winchesters and some Colts and Smiths. I bet I have cases that I have reloaded 7-8 times with no issues.
Rob
All great info!!! Stupid thing happened though. So, I won this rifle on an auction at Gun Broker. Went to go pick it up yesterday from my local FFL. I asked before I went if antique firearms can be taken home same day and they said “yes.” But when we got down to business, they said that California law states that if the ammo is still available on the market, then there will have to be a 10 day waiting period. All other states can be delivered to your door. So I’ll have to wait till the 28th to pick it up and get this all configured. I was so excited to tinker all weekend too. So I will be posting proof pics once I get it out of the CA gun prison. Shame, shame!!!
Your FFL does not know what he is talking about. An antique is an antique and not even Kalifornia makes an exception to that. If it was manufactured before 1899 he has no legal reason to make you wait. Inexperienced dealers sometimes err on the side of caution.
I live in Kalifornia and have bought and sold a lot of antique guns over the last 40 years, including Model 73’s. You need to find another FFL next time. Or better yet, if you can, have it shipped straight to you.
Chuck said
Your FFL does not know what he is talking about. An antique is an antique and not even Kalifornia makes an exception to that. If it was manufactured before 1899 he has no legal reason to make you wait. Inexperienced dealers sometimes err on the side of caution.I live in Kalifornia and have bought and sold a lot of antique guns over the last 40 years, including Model 73’s. You need to find another FFL next time. Or better yet, if you can, have it shipped straight to you.
VERY, very, true, but there are a multitude of similar morons in the business. If the FFL app required an IQ test, a high proportion of applicants would be rejected. One of these SHs refused to ship me direct a gun made C. 1875, making me pay a $45 FFL fee, & many, if not most, refuse to honor C&R licenses.
Chuck said
Your FFL does not know what he is talking about. An antique is an antique and not even Kalifornia makes an exception to that. If it was manufactured before 1899 he has no legal reason to make you wait. Inexperienced dealers sometimes err on the side of caution.I live in Kalifornia and have bought and sold a lot of antique guns over the last 40 years, including Model 73’s. You need to find another FFL next time. Or better yet, if you can, have it shipped straight to you.
Very interesting. I’ll be giving them a call Monday morning then. It’s actually a very reputable company. I was dealing with a girl half my age, who may have been misinformed. I’m hoping this is the case.
Update: I just read a CA DOJ penal code for Jan. 2023 that states antique firearms have to be transferred through an FFL if the ammo is on the market in the US.
RaptorAddict said
Chuck said
Your FFL does not know what he is talking about. An antique is an antique and not even Kalifornia makes an exception to that. If it was manufactured before 1899 he has no legal reason to make you wait. Inexperienced dealers sometimes err on the side of caution.
I live in Kalifornia and have bought and sold a lot of antique guns over the last 40 years, including Model 73’s. You need to find another FFL next time. Or better yet, if you can, have it shipped straight to you.
Very interesting. I’ll be giving them a call Monday morning then. It’s actually a very reputable company. I was dealing with a girl half my age, who may have been misinformed. I’m hoping this is the case.
Update: I just read a CA DOJ penal code for Jan. 2023 that states antique firearms have to be transferred through an FFL if the ammo is on the market in the US.
Yes, it may say something like that but no experienced dealer pays any attention to that. Neither does the BATFE and Ca. DOJ. If you are in the So Cal area I can give you 2 very experienced FFLs.
Chuck said
RaptorAddict said
Chuck said
Your FFL does not know what he is talking about. An antique is an antique and not even Kalifornia makes an exception to that. If it was manufactured before 1899 he has no legal reason to make you wait. Inexperienced dealers sometimes err on the side of caution.
I live in Kalifornia and have bought and sold a lot of antique guns over the last 40 years, including Model 73’s. You need to find another FFL next time. Or better yet, if you can, have it shipped straight to you.
Very interesting. I’ll be giving them a call Monday morning then. It’s actually a very reputable company. I was dealing with a girl half my age, who may have been misinformed. I’m hoping this is the case.
Update: I just read a CA DOJ penal code for Jan. 2023 that states antique firearms have to be transferred through an FFL if the ammo is on the market in the US.
Yes, it may say something like that but no experienced dealer pays any attention to that. Neither does the BATFE and Ca. DOJ. If you are in the So Cal area I can give you 2 very experienced FFLs.
I would like to know of them for sure. I am located in Simi Valley, CA.
RaptorAddict said
Chuck said
RaptorAddict said
Chuck said
Your FFL does not know what he is talking about. An antique is an antique and not even Kalifornia makes an exception to that. If it was manufactured before 1899 he has no legal reason to make you wait. Inexperienced dealers sometimes err on the side of caution.
I live in Kalifornia and have bought and sold a lot of antique guns over the last 40 years, including Model 73’s. You need to find another FFL next time. Or better yet, if you can, have it shipped straight to you.
Very interesting. I’ll be giving them a call Monday morning then. It’s actually a very reputable company. I was dealing with a girl half my age, who may have been misinformed. I’m hoping this is the case.
Update: I just read a CA DOJ penal code for Jan. 2023 that states antique firearms have to be transferred through an FFL if the ammo is on the market in the US.
Yes, it may say something like that but no experienced dealer pays any attention to that. Neither does the BATFE and Ca. DOJ. If you are in the So Cal area I can give you 2 very experienced FFLs.
I would like to know of them for sure. I am located in Simi Valley, CA.
Over the years I have bought and sold with Carol Watson’s West Coast Auctions in Anaheim. I used to use Little John’s but now Jeff the owner of Gunslingers is leasing the shop in Orange. Both of these are a drive from Simi Valley. I did buy a non antique from LS&B once. Martin Retting in Culver City is closing their doors soon.
Chuck said
RaptorAddict said
Chuck said
RaptorAddict said
Chuck said
Your FFL does not know what he is talking about. An antique is an antique and not even Kalifornia makes an exception to that. If it was manufactured before 1899 he has no legal reason to make you wait. Inexperienced dealers sometimes err on the side of caution.
I live in Kalifornia and have bought and sold a lot of antique guns over the last 40 years, including Model 73’s. You need to find another FFL next time. Or better yet, if you can, have it shipped straight to you.
Very interesting. I’ll be giving them a call Monday morning then. It’s actually a very reputable company. I was dealing with a girl half my age, who may have been misinformed. I’m hoping this is the case.
Update: I just read a CA DOJ penal code for Jan. 2023 that states antique firearms have to be transferred through an FFL if the ammo is on the market in the US.
Yes, it may say something like that but no experienced dealer pays any attention to that. Neither does the BATFE and Ca. DOJ. If you are in the So Cal area I can give you 2 very experienced FFLs.
I would like to know of them for sure. I am located in Simi Valley, CA.
Over the years I have bought and sold with Carol Watson’s West Coast Auctions in Anaheim. I used to use Little John’s but now Jeff the owner of Gunslingers is leasing the shop in Orange. Both of these are a drive from Simi Valley. I did buy a non antique from LS&B once. Martin Retting in Culver City is closing their doors soon.
Yes, they are a ways out from me. I have my local gun shops that have done me very well in the past. I chose this FFL, Lock Stock and Barrel cause they are a Gun Broker auction business and it’s 10 min away from my house. They have been around for a long time and move mass amounts of C&R and antique arms. So figured I’d just go ahead and pay there and pick up. I’ll be calling tomorrow to talk to management and see what can be done. If nothing, then oh well on this round. Just gotta suffer with fantasy for another week. 
Not familiar with the gun laws in CA but the gun laws are changing all the time and in every state and at the federal level too. The form 4473 changed in I think Jan 23 and there is another change coming up soon this year. I live in New England and both MA and VT have both changed laws. Although the FFL doing a 4473 on an antique might seem over the top the ammo availability is something that is getting put on the books. Although I don’t agree with it I really don’t blame the FFL he is just covering his butt and probably wants to stay in business. With the availability of 44-40 being what it is lately one could argue about whether that ammo is still commercially available. But if the shop is dependent on firearms sales and is still selling in CA in todays environment I wouldn’t be too hard on him. I have a friend who is an FFL who has an FFL friend that recently had an onsite unannounced inspection by the ATF which lasted a few days and they went over everything. I bet that issue of ammo would be something that the ATF would look at especially in CA.
Rob
Robert Drummond Jr said
Not familiar with the gun laws in CA but the gun laws are changing all the time and in every state and at the federal level too. The form 4473 changed in I think Jan 23 and there is another change coming up soon this year. I live in New England and both MA and VT have both changed laws. Although the FFL doing a 4473 on an antique might seem over the top the ammo availability is something that is getting put on the books. Although I don’t agree with it I really don’t blame the FFL he is just covering his butt and probably wants to stay in business. With the availability of 44-40 being what it is lately one could argue about whether that ammo is still commercially available. But if the shop is dependent on firearms sales and is still selling in CA in todays environment I wouldn’t be too hard on him. I have a friend who is an FFL who has an FFL friend that recently had an onsite unannounced inspection by the ATF which lasted a few days and they went over everything. I bet that issue of ammo would be something that the ATF would look at especially in CA.Rob
All well said! Agreed.
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