Good morning, David. Could you post some pictures of your rifle?  It would be helpful if you could say how much you already know about the rifle itself and the cartridge. I was of age when the 225 was introduced and know something about why it didn’t get greater acceptance than it did, despite its early reputation for excellent inherent accuracy. 

You don’t mention why yours should have a heavy barrel.  Others here can give you a year of manufacture for your serial number but stock configuration and detail can ballpark it. 

If faded memory serves, and I’ll check my Gun Digest collection, the Model 70 was offered in 225 caliber in both a standard and varmint configuration for a time. The early post-63, standard style rifles came with a fairly heavy contour barrel anyway, at least my former 1966 .243 did. 

David,  Lou is our Model 70 guru of record and, for matters of value concerning such rifles made before the “New Model 70” was introduced, he has no peer of whom I’m aware. [I don’t owe him money nor does he possess any compromising photos of me. That is my honest opinion.] 

However, where Lutrell and lesser experts fear to opine, I will rush in and say the following:  There are certain Post-63 Winchesters that are collectible, if they are in excellent condition. By “certain” i mean several uncommon and interesting models and styles, including the Model 70 “Mannlicher” and any Model 70 factory chambered for the 225 Winchester cartridge.  As is the case with many other collectible guns, these were not made in great numbers because they were not popular, which does not always speak to their actual quality. More about this below. 

Even those Post-63 Winchesters that are not sought by collectors can be surprisingly valuable to potential buyers of a certain age because they or their father or uncle had one, used one, or they wanted one when they were young. Again, PROVIDED the rifle in question is in really excellent condition.  I call this market the “Nostalgia Market” and I know it’s real because I’ve seen it too often to think otherwise  

My opinion of the quality of Post-63 Winchesters is this:  the redesigned guns introduced in 1964 were cosmetically ugly. There is no other way of saying it. They looked cheap and, in some cases, they were made of cheaper materials with little thought given to appearance because long time Winchester employees in the Commercial Gun Department were powerless to stop or modify the changes wrought by the team of Ford Motor Company executives brought in to show the New England rubes how things should be done, 

I, personally, was appalled at the post-63 “basketweave with fruit and scroll” carvings on the “new” Model 88 rifle stock. Whatever failings the 88 had, it’s original stock was sleek and graceful. The Post -63 version was hideous by comparison. But a high condition 88 made to the new design gets snapped up these days. 

Mechanically, the post-63 guns are safer and more accurate out of the box.

Another thing: Beginning about 1967 and then continually thereafter, the Winchester line of rifles and shotguns rapidly improved in cosmetic design and build, to the point that, by 1972, the Winchester line was a respected competitor again.

The 225 cartridge is something of an odd duck, semi-rimmed, and looking an awful lot like an Improved 219 Zipper, but it gor rave reviews for accuracy. It might have sold better but about the same time Remington made the 22-250 a SAAMI commercial cartridge and it took all the cake. The Model 70 225 has a certain aura in the marketplace. I believe it will sell at a premium to other calibers in a post-63 Model 70. 

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I should add that i was writing only about Winchesters made during the time the manufacturer was owned by Olin Industries, which ended 12/31/1980.

I’ve attached photos of my 1980.Model 70 in XTR grade, a 375 H&H.  While the styling suffers from the fashions of the day, the build quality, fit, and metal and wood finish are beyond reproach for a production rifle. Critics should bear in mind that many –MANY– more Post-63 Model 70 rifles were manufactured and sold than the predecessor rifle. We are not talking about likes and dislikes but viability in the marketplace. 

Of course, some of the best Winchester rifles ever made have been made after the manufacturer was no longer owned by a fertilizer company.  The 9422 is a good example. 

Paul, it struck me as just that when I saw it on a consignment rack.  I knew I was going to buy it if a closer inspection didn’t turn up anything adverse. It would take a forensics examiner to tell it had ever been fired, although I expect it has been but not much. 

I pulled that year’s Gun Digest to see how it was catalogued and learned  in 1980 Winchester had two sub-lines of the Model 70, some plain Jane models and then some XTR models like this one. The Model 70 XTR in the catalog looked like this one but, according to the catalog description,  the 375 caliber was the only one with a satin stock finish instead of a high gloss finish. The satin finish is really what gives the gun some class. The bonus was an installed set of expensive Leupold QC bases and rings.

I have never killed anything that wanted to return the favor and kill me back, nor am I likely to ever do so. My use for this 375 is to convince  my friends Mike the TxGunNut and Jeremy P. To put on safari gear and sight the rifle in for me while I photograph them doing the shooting., The more accurate of the two wins the opportunity to prove himself by shooting 10 rounds of 500 grain 458 Winchester Magnum from my 1980 Winchester African. I’ll post the photos. 

Bill-

I know that our friend Jeremy attended a rifle school taught in part by one of the best rifle shots I know. I’m quite confident, however, the curriculum did not include the earginsplittenloudenboomers you speak of. At one time I was a fan of “Thumpers” (not the cute, furry type) and developed loads in apparent anticipation of TPWD adding a season on T-Rex with generous bag limits. I still have at least one of those “Thumpers” and ample ammunition on the off-chance I or someone else wants to beat themselves silly for no apparent reason. 

All kidding aside the 375 H&H in a proper rifle is not especially brutal but it will help to illustrate the value of the two-shot sight-in method and a long eye relief scope. The 458 is another matter, while I have fired 45-70’s at velocities never envisioned in 1873 in a rifle weighing about eight pounds I’ve never had the pleasure of touching off this particular cartridge. In a heavy rifle using proper technique I’m sure it would be tolerable while the sticker price of today’s ammo would be quite painful. 

I’m pretty sure I would much prefer a range session with David’s .225 as I am a fan of odd things, attractive rifles and rimmed (or semi-rimmed) cartridges. Unfortunately this case design was partly responsible for its early demise. 

Mike

Bill, you need to bring the 45-90 to the range a let them shoot that. it is a real kick shooting those, especially when loaded with a 300 jsp. If you want somthing a little softer look around for some of the PMC with the 300 lead. those only give a little push.

Zebulon said
Tom,   are we talking factory 45-70 loads?  

In decades past, back when Dupont still owned Remington, Big Green offered a 300 grain JSP 45/70 load that was pretty spicy. 

PMC is Taiwanese, I thought, if not CCP. I’d have guessed their ammo would be balls to the walls since sueing China is like sueing the wind.    

What Im curious about is whether Aguila makes any 45/70 ammo.  I’d guess not since a Mexican ammo maker probably has a hard time just supplying 9×19, 5.56×45 and 7.62×39 to the Cartels. I had a box of Aguila treinta treinta cartridges once and they were very spry out of a carbine. If they ever make a run of 45 Govt, I’d bet it will be an Elmer Keith Memorial Magmum, given the Mexican penchant for machismo.  

  

No Bill. I mean actual 45-90. Pmc made some back when ever that had 300 gr lead and they are pretty mild if I do say so myself. But with your new 86 you can hope up that thing with 300 gr JSP hunting loads that will put a little kink in ya’ knickas’. I have some reloads that really make the neighbors take notice. 

Zebulon said
Tom, figure out how I can temporarily pad my 45/90 crescent buttplate and I’ll consider it.  Im having difficulty finding 458, much less 459, 300 grain lead for my Sunday afternoon loads. 

Assuming I do not first step in front of a DART bus [“WE REALLY DO BRAKE FOR NOBODY”],  I’ll turn 81 next month. If my recoil tolerance has deteriorated like the rest of me, I may have to load so lightly I can track my shots visually. Have to see. 

  

I can build most any load, mild or wild, but the accumulated wear and tear on my shoulder, neck and back is very real, as is the risk of a detached retina. I load a BP 45-90 cartridge for one of the rifles that inspired JMB’s Single Shot but I don’t have anything to prove. I can still shoot a thumper just fine, I just have no desire to do so. My orthopod has put his kids through college and retired partly due to my misadventures and I have no desire to break in another one, so to speak. 

Mike

Zebulon said
Mike,  I’m glad you reminded me about the risk of a detached retina.  In the last week of 2010 and the first week of 2011 [different 

  

So, finish your post?