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Good morning,
This just popped up on Guns International and is listed by Leroy Merz. Supposedly it is a Model 8192 and serial number 4. In the listing it has: Factory records indicates that it was originally 44 caliber octagon barrel and shipped from the warehouse May 3, 1892 with 15 other rifles. Returned to Winchester Aug 23, 1892 and changed to round barrel. Of the 15 sent in the same order, 4 were returned and changed into round barrel guns. This is definitely true for the very early batch of 1892 rifles. Many did go out and then were returned, re-barreled and shipped out again. The problem arises in that they were originally sporting rifles and went back out as sporting rifles BUT this example is a SRC! Additionally, the first 1892 SRC was not produced for at least another 1000 rifles. The barrel address is incorrect for the earliest 1892 round barrels on either sporting rifles or carbines and the front sight and butt plate are also not the correct style for the earliest SRC’s.
I have notified Leroy of the problem
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
So, are you saying only the receiver portion of this gun is “original”? But then it has an added saddle ring…Sounds like too many problems for a $37,500 price tag.
deerhunter said
So, are you saying only the receiver portion of this gun is “original”? But then it has an added saddle ring…Sounds like too many problems for a $37,500 price tag.
Since there were no SRC’s built until after SN 1100 The receiver is certainly not original. And if it has in fact had the ring added it is not even “original”. If the number 4 digit is perfectly positioned in the center of the receiver bottom then it would have to be a 5 digit gun that has had most of the SN removed to make it a single digit and have the “then correct” barrel address. Any four digit SN with a 4 in the hundreds or tens position would have an offset location for the 4 from the dead center position. And it would have been made after approximately SN 7000 for that barrel address to be correct.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Can’t wait to hear what Leroy’s response is…….Waiting with bated breath
November 7, 2015
Offline
Good eye, Michael. Carbine looks pretty honest to me.
Mike
nanzca said
Is this the same gun??
Yep! The same one.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
twobit said
Yep! The same one.
Michael
Wow, a 200% mark up to what it sold at Rock Island. I’m in the wrong business.
Al
tionesta1 said
Wow, a 200% mark up to what it sold at Rock Island. I’m in the wrong business.
Al
Maybe. Only IF you realize that mark up!!!
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
There appears to have been a change in the finish on the barrel since it sold at Rock Island last fall. RIA’s description notes an “artificial brown patina” on the barrel and the pictures show a rather dramatic difference in the finish between the barrel and magazine tube. The current pictures show the finish on the barrel and magazine tube to match pretty well. I would guess that the barrel has been replaced with a barrel from a donor carbine with a finish that more closely matches the rest of the gun. This seems especially likely since, as Michael points out, the barrel address isn’t correct for this vintage.
It is also possible that the artificial brown was removed from the barrel and the underlying finish matched the gun, but that would beg the question of why it was browned in the first place. Does anyone know how to remove the artificial browning? I would think that they are just a type of cold blue with a brown cast.
Mark Douglas said
There appears to have been a change in the finish on the barrel since it sold at Rock Island last fall. RIA’s description notes an “artificial brown patina” on the barrel and the pictures show a rather dramatic difference in the finish between the barrel and magazine tube. The current pictures show the finish on the barrel and magazine tube to match pretty well. I would guess that the barrel has been replaced with a barrel from a donor carbine with a finish that more closely matches the rest of the gun. This seems especially likely since, as Michael points out, the barrel address isn’t correct for this vintage.It is also possible that the artificial brown was removed from the barrel and the underlying finish matched the gun, but that would beg the question of why it was browned in the first place. Does anyone know how to remove the artificial browning? I would think that they are just a type of cold blue with a brown cast.
WHOA!!!! HOLD THE F’ing phone.
There are some other HUGE problems now that I compare the two. The wood has been swapped out also. Look at the difference in the wood grain on the left side of the butt stock!!!!!!!!!!!! AND the huge gouge on the right side of the butt stock has miraculously “healed thyself” in the year between RIA and Leroy!! This is right up there with “Houston. We have a problem!!”
WOW!
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
twobit said
Mark Douglas said
There appears to have been a change in the finish on the barrel since it sold at Rock Island last fall. RIA’s description notes an “artificial brown patina” on the barrel and the pictures show a rather dramatic difference in the finish between the barrel and magazine tube. The current pictures show the finish on the barrel and magazine tube to match pretty well. I would guess that the barrel has been replaced with a barrel from a donor carbine with a finish that more closely matches the rest of the gun. This seems especially likely since, as Michael points out, the barrel address isn’t correct for this vintage.It is also possible that the artificial brown was removed from the barrel and the underlying finish matched the gun, but that would beg the question of why it was browned in the first place. Does anyone know how to remove the artificial browning? I would think that they are just a type of cold blue with a brown cast.
WHOA!!!! HOLD THE F’ing phone.
There are some other HUGE problems now that I compare the two. The wood has been swapped out also. Look at the difference in the wood grain on the left side of the butt stock!!!!!!!!!!!! AND the huge gouge on the right side of the butt stock has miraculously “healed thyself” in the year between RIA and Leroy!! This is right up there with “Houston. We have a problem!!”
WOW!
Michael
Barrel looks definitely swapped since it was sold at RIA. Compare the front sights of the two…
AND the orientation of the screw slots on both barrel bands is different!!!!! I would bet about $37,500 that the same would be found if we had an image from RIA of the upper tang screws.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Buttstock on the RIA photo looks like gumwood to me. Definitely walnut in Leroy’s photo.
deerhunter said
Buttstock on the RIA photo looks like gumwood to me. Definitely walnut in Leroy’s photo.
I agree. It looks like somebody tried to do exactly what my mom said you could not… “Make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear!!!” WOW! This is pretty much depressing.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
It would be interesting to know who the buyer from RIA was. Have you gotten a response from Leroy?
deerhunter said
It would be interesting to know who the buyer from RIA was. Have you gotten a response from Leroy?
Yes it ABSOLUTELY would. And no I haven’t.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
November 7, 2015
Offline
Did we have a thread about this carbine before or was it another in a group of 15 rifles returned to Winchester way back when?
Mike
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