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February 17, 2022
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I noticed the recent topic discussing a purveyor of possibly of faked and altered guns has been locked out. I meant to post this earlier as I felt it maybe worth while. These where auctioned off over the weekend. Please take note of the description of the boxes. I hope no one got burned on them.
June 12, 2013
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Are you thinking the rifles are also faked? Auction description states boxes are likely reproduction.
March 6, 2011
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antler1 said
Are you thinking the rifles are also faked? Auction description states boxes are likely reproduction.
Actually the description states “The rifle includes a CORRECT box that shows PROPER labels, staples, internal spacers, paper lining and pamphlets, the corrugated box itself MAY be a very high quality reproduction.” That leaves a lot of room for interpretation of it’s authenticity. Something made the auction house suspicious to provide that caveat. A picture of the label would help.
The trouble with suspected fake boxes is that some collectors transfer that suspicion to the gun itself, imagining flaws that do not exist. If a guy would try to sell you a fake box, he would try to sell you a problem gun also.
February 17, 2022
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antler1 said
Are you thinking the rifles are also faked? Auction description states boxes are likely reproduction.
No Idea. Just seemed to fit in with a previous discussion here.
September 21, 2016
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After reading these listings and several others in this auction, I began to wonder if Amoskeag has a new hire writing descriptions. The tone and “optimistic flare” of the writing on several questionable guns was noticeable.
November 5, 2014
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I’ve told this TRUE story before, but it seems appropriate in the context of these two threads… 
Back in 2014, I sold (16) pre-64 M70s from my Dad’s collection to Greg Weiand (Perry County Firearms). All were legit, some were slightly lesser condition, and some were high condition duplicates of things already in my collection. Anyway, Greg looked my guns over and we settled on a price that was about 80% of what he thought he could get for them. I considered it fair and went home satisfied. In due course, Greg listed them on GI with his 20% mark-up and most sold quickly.
FWIW… I took the (fairly substantial) money and spent it in the Amoskeag Auction when Vic Vanb’s M70 collection was being sold, so I basically swapped (16) guns I didn’t need for about (5) outstanding examples from Vic.
Imagine my SURPRISE however when a couple weeks later, four or five of the guns Greg sold on GI turned up back on GI now listed by “Selling Dad’s Old Guns”!!! In the brief interval they had acquired boxes/tags/paperwork and the non-period Winchester slings that seller liked to toss into his boxes. I know, by serial number, that he was “selling MY DAD’S old guns” and I know none of those guns were “NIB” when I sold them to Greg, nor when Greg sold them on GI…
Reason I bring this up is that in that case I know the guns themselves were legit. The business model there was to take a pretty nice legit gun, add a fake box, overstate the condition somewhat, and double the price… 
Dishonest? Yes!!! Misrepresentation? Yes!!! But I’m not sure “Selling Dad’s” was hooked up with the fake factories the way some other sellers are today. Fake cardboard factory, yes, but maybe not fake gun factory. If you want to read some sketchy auction descriptions, check out the “fantasy” M70s in the upcoming December Morphy Auction. “As custom assembled” as a euphemism for “parts gun with fake barrel”???
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
December 9, 2002
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Louis,
Thanks for re telling that story as I didn’t remember it, in all honesty. I do remember voicing my opinion against Dad’s guns a few years back, and a member who I don’t see much on here any more, kinda chastised me for my comments. That’s okay as those of you who know me well enough know that I stand by my comments and am not afraid to admit when I’m wrong, either. Many times I’ll go out on a limb and ask, what seems to be an obvious question to many seasoned collectors, as I feel this is such a great learning and educational forum, for Winchesters, we try to help others out and do, on many occasions, just as You Louis, are doing by re telling this story again.
I feel this a very good thread to keep us all on our toes, and try to keep an eye out and help each other.
Anthony
September 19, 2014
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Lou, You may know I do not know details on nor collect the model 70. But much as Anthony pointed out, I also don’t recall your story. It bears a great learning experience that is worth knowing and remembering. Thank you. Tim
March 6, 2011
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When you bring up that other guy and say “The business model there was to take a pretty nice legit gun, add a fake box”, I don’t think that was a surprise to anyone. When he was selling his guns on GB and I said he had some very nice guns, I was derided by some people here who believed apparently that all of his guns were fake because he sold some with fake boxes. They refused to believe that he could actually be selling some rare, high condition guns.
Actually, I believe nice authentic reproduction Winchester boxes would have value themselves. A lot of guys would like to display them with guns in their gun rooms, simply because originals are not available and they would add an attractive addition to displays. I have copies of Remington statues, Russell paintings, Indian artifacts, etc. in my den. I like looking at them, and originals are either not available or prohibitive in cost.
November 5, 2014
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I’d tend to agree that some collectors would like to display their guns in accurate repro boxes, much the way that they like to put a repro hang tag on the gun to record what the gun is… I use plain white tags, but I have a tag on every gun…
If there were a business openly selling repro boxes as such, like you can buy repro hang tags, instruction manuals, etc. that would be OK, and I suspect they’d sell quite a few. What isn’t OK is to put a gun (legit or beauty shopped) into a fake box and then represent it as “NIB” at double the price of the same gun without the box. I won’t pay a substantial premium for cardboard, but some folks will…
While I’m sure it’s true for all Winchesters, I know that with M70s many of the “NIB” guns being offered for sale are in fact in genuine M70 boxes, just not THER boxes. They’re boxes with altered (or fake) end labels and paperwork that’s either repro of gathered up from various sources. Thing is that the sellers seemingly never bother to get the box and paperwork to be period correct for the gun they’re putting in it. They probably don’t know what’s correct. Neither do most prospective buyers. Between 1931 and 1963, Winchester’s corporate name changed at least four times, and with it the paperwork. I know the sequence of changes to boxes, tags, manuals, flyers, etc., but nowadays it’s just about impossible to reconstruct exactly WHEN the changes occurred b/c there’s been so much mixing and matching of random paperwork and altering the serial numbers on (fake) end labels (which IMHO makes even a genuine box valueless, since it cannot be dated).
Here’s something I’ve done a couple times for my own gun room. This is a genuine high condition M70 Varmint rifle from early 1957 (s/n 395521). The box is a genuine early 1957 M70 Varmint rifle box from a 393XXX number gun (part of the serial number on the original label is missing). I have not (and will not) alter the label on the box (thereby destroying its value IMHO), but I do like to display them together. NOBODY would mistake this for anything but what it is, a correct gun in a correct box, but NOT “NIB”… But it’s an attractive display IMHO.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
March 6, 2011
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I believe we all agree, selling any reproduction item as factory original is deceitful. Boxes, hang tags, labels, etc. As I recall, that other guy was always careful in his descriptions to never say the boxes were “factory original” or “original to the gun”.
Even if sold as reproductions today, inevitably in the future, with the appropriate wear, they will become “original to the gun” to many people. Maybe ignorance is bliss. No matter what you paid for the reproduction item, and what you do or do not know about it, does it really matter if you are happy and satisfied with it?
April 15, 2005
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wolfbait said
I believe we all agree, selling any reproduction item as factory original is deceitful. Boxes, hang tags, labels, etc. As I recall, that other guy was always careful in his descriptions to never say the boxes were “factory original” or “original to the gun”.
Even if sold as reproductions today, inevitably in the future, with the appropriate wear, they will become “original to the gun” to many people. Maybe ignorance is bliss. No matter what you paid for the reproduction item, and what you do or do not know about it, does it really matter if you are happy and satisfied with it?
No matter what “spin” you try to put on it, SDOG is a dishonest purveyor of intentionally faked Winchester items. Nobody in their right mind wants to pay a premium price for a gun with a fake box and other associated items… except maybe you.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 5, 2014
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wolfbait-
Another example of SDOG’s old tricks…
Here are two photos I saved of a genuine M70 308WIN Featherweight box (s/n 263900) that sold (without paperwork) on eBay. Apparently it had been used to store a coat rack… At the time I had thought about bidding on it just b/c it’s an example of a legit M70 box from 1953. But I guess I forgot about the auction and I never bid. It sold for about $150…
Now here are two photos of an SDOG listing on GB a while later for a “NIB” (complete with paperwork and sling) M70 308 WIN Featherweight (s/n 242874). Does the box look “familiar”??? Different (fake) end label, same box… Only with a strategically placed piece of strapping tape over “Coat Rack”.
It happens that sometime later (much too late for a “return”) I learned who had purchased the fraudulent “NIB” rifle from SDOG, and got to see the rifle itself “hands on”. IMHO in that case it was a high condition original finish M70 Featherweight, not a “restoration” (refinished). I am NOT claiming that all/most/many of SDOG’s misrepresented guns were legit, only that in the couple cases where I have “evidence” of his shenanigans I think the guns themselves (Model 70s) were OK… 
Short story is that SDOG spent maybe $200 on an original box plus fake label plus repro paperwork and incorrect sling, and made himself a couple thousand dollars profit over what the gun was worth. If that’s not DISHONEST then I do not understand the meaning of the word. If people want to own a gun complete with authentic contemporary or repro box and paperwork, more power to them. If they want to pay somebody like SDOG to put the “kit” together for them, then more power to them. Not my idea of a wise expenditure, but it’s not my money… BUT… If someone buys a gun from SDOG (or the current sellers following a similar business model) thinking it’s a bona fide “NIB” gun because the seller represented the gun that way, then it’s FRAUD and not to be rationalized/excused/condoned… Hopefully the buyers are “happy” with their purchases…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
March 6, 2011
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Bert H. said
wolfbait said
I believe we all agree, selling any reproduction item as factory original is deceitful. Boxes, hang tags, labels, etc. As I recall, that other guy was always careful in his descriptions to never say the boxes were “factory original” or “original to the gun”.
Even if sold as reproductions today, inevitably in the future, with the appropriate wear, they will become “original to the gun” to many people. Maybe ignorance is bliss. No matter what you paid for the reproduction item, and what you do or do not know about it, does it really matter if you are happy and satisfied with it?
No matter what “spin” you try to put on it, SDOG is a dishonest purveyor of intentionally faked Winchester items. Nobody in their right mind wants to pay a premium price for a gun with a fake box and other associated items… except maybe you.
I understand that the guy was selling guns with fake boxes (he also sold some guns with boxes that appeared original, maybe to add credibility to his other auctions). There is no need to continually tell me that he sold fake boxes. I understand that. OK? He also sold what appeared to be some really nice, rare guns.
“Nobody in their right mind wants to pay a premium price for a gun with a fake box and other associated items… except maybe you.” You seem to think that the hundreds of satisfied collectors who bought guns from him were stupid. Ignorant fools. I checked the feedback of many of the buyers of his guns. They were experienced collectors who bought many valuable collectible Winchesters. They may have paid exactly what they thought the gun was worth to them with a reproduction box. They had 3 days to inspect the boxes closely and show them to other collectors to determine if they met their collector needs.
For some reason, you believe you should be the determiner of how much someone should pay for what they want to own. To quote Greta “How Dare You!”
April 15, 2005
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wolfbait said
I understand that the guy was selling guns with fake boxes (he also sold some guns with boxes that appeared original, maybe to add credibility to his other auctions). There is no need to continually tell me that he sold fake boxes. I understand that. OK? He also sold what appeared to be some really nice, rare guns.
“Nobody in their right mind wants to pay a premium price for a gun with a fake box and other associated items… except maybe you.” You seem to think that the hundreds of satisfied collectors who bought guns from him were stupid. Ignorant fools. I checked the feedback of many of the buyers of his guns. They were experienced collectors who bought many valuable collectible Winchesters. They may have paid exactly what they thought the gun was worth to them with a reproduction box. They had 3 days to inspect the boxes closely and show them to other collectors to determine if they met their collector needs.
For some reason, you believe you should be the determiner of how much someone should pay for what they want to own. To quote Greta “How Dare You!”
This is the last post for this topic…
Why do you “wolfbait” (John) continue to avidly endorse somebody who is a demonstrated dishonest person? Are you in cahoots with him, or are you a personal friend of his? Based on your written responses, it is quite clear to many of us that you personally endorse his lack of business ethics and his dishonestly.
Do not start another topic in response to this post. If you do, I will immediately delete it, and the restrict your access to this forum… this topic is now locked.
Bert – Admin
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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