Hi Winchester experts.
The fact there are no known factory records detailing the chambering and other specifics by serial number of pre-64 model 70s has created a unique opportunity for counterfeiters to create “rare” rifles. It’s an unfortunate situation which some experts have surmised has led to more fake collectible model 70s than real ones. I can’t verify that opinion, but we’ve had rifles in our shop for authentication which we have definitively proven to be fakes, so I have firsthand knowledge of how sophisticated some forgeries can be.
Anyhow, in this regard, the model 70 is somewhat unique, since detailed records seem to exist for most other Winchester models.
Can someone explain the circumstances which led to the the model 70 records being lost/destroyed, when the records for other Winchesters seem to have been preserved?
Thanks in advance for any insights!
Justin
Justin,
I believe that you are not fully aware of the actual facts, and I will emphatically state that the Model 70 is definitely not “somewhat unique, since detailed records seem to exist for most other Winchester models.” The opposite is actually much more accurate.
The factory warehouse ledger records only survive up to the year 1907 (for all of the models that were in production prior to that time) with limited exception. There are a very limited few models where the records still exist beyond 1907 (the Models 1873, 1885, and 1886), but there are far more models that do not have any records surviving at all.
Beginning mid-year 1907, Winchester stopped using the old style ledger books and began recording each serial number on an individual index card. Winchester employee Edwin Pugsli had the original ledger book records moved to a different location, and that is ultimately what saved them from destruction.
It is not just the Model 70 records that were destroyed (not lost). Winchester intentionally burned them to free up space in their storage buildings. There were far more records that were destroyed than those that were saved… e.g. for the Model 1894, only the first 353,999 records were spared, with the remaining 2,246,012 pre-1964 records destroyed (burned). There are several dozen models that have no surviving records at all, beginning with the Model 1910, and all models after it, e.g. the models 1911, 1912/12, 20, 36, 37, 40, 41, 42, 43, 47, 50, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 60A, 61, 62/62A, 63, 64, 65, 67/67A, 68, 69/69A, 70, 71, 72, 74, 75, and 77. Without adding all of the production numbers up, I would estimate that fewer than 10% of the production records survive today.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 5, 2014

Hi Bert and Others-
If I can trouble you to ask a different but related question… As you point out, this question would apply to most, if not all, 20th century Winchester models, except maybe the M21?
The question, for products like the M70 (1936-1963 period) what records existed in the first place?
– Many of the design blue prints exist, right? I think Seewin has some of these for the M70 in his collection.
– Certainly (I think) that the polishing room recorded serial numbers applied on a day-to-day basis. Some of this information for the M70 must exist in Cody (basis for the WACA year of manufacture tool), and I believe that Pauline Muerrle was able to rescue the day-to-day PR records for part of the M70 production period.
– At the time Roger Rule was researching his M70 book, copies of at least some of the the “basic nomenclature lists” existed (pages are pictured in the book). These were the “parts lists” that made up each catalog symbol number. I am unaware of whether/where these documents can be found today.
– Presumably, there were production work orders that went to the product assembly section, e.g. an order to produce (50) G7044C (30-06 target rifle). As far as I know these are lost.
BUT… Did the factory ever maintain a record of what serial number was associated with what catalog symbol number in products like the M70? My understanding is that although receivers were serialized in order (obviously), they were assembled randomly. Net result is you tend to see “blocks” of similar rifles serial numbers that are close, but not sequential. Was there ever a record, for example, that my imaginary work order above was filled with receiver S/N 410100, 410101, 410105…
I know the records are long gone, but based on what you know about factory production practices in the mid-20th century, did the M70 “holy grail” ever exist in the first place?
Thanks for any insight…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Lou,
I am of the very positive belief that factory records did exist for the Model 70 that specified exactly what each individual serial number was built & shipped as. I can see no logical reason why Winchester would not have kept the same records for the Model 70 that they maintained for all other models.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Lou,
I am of the very positive belief that factory records did exist for the Model 70 that specified exactly what each individual serial number was built & shipped as. I can see no logical reason why Winchester would not have kept the same records for the Model 70 that they maintained for all other models.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 5, 2014

Hi Bert-
Thanks for the insight. Do you happen to know how long the index card system implemented on 1907 was used? Did it, or something like it, persist all the way up into the computer age, or did the factory go from bound ledgers to index cards to something else?
Shame that there are not at least one or two examples in existence of what these records looked like (for the M70 or any other model from the 1940s and 1950s). Maybe there are a couple lying around, even though the bulk of these records were systematically destroyed? It would just be interesting to see what they looked like.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis Luttrell said
Hi Bert-Thanks for the insight. Do you happen to know how long the index card system implemented on 1907 was used? Did it, or something like it, persist all the way up into the computer age, or did the factory go from bound ledgers to index cards to something else?
Shame that there are not at least one or two examples in existence of what these records looked like (for the M70 or any other model from the 1940s and 1950s). Maybe there are a couple lying around, even though the bulk of these records were systematically destroyed? It would just be interesting to see what they looked like.
Best,
Lou
Lou,
While I do not know what the exact answer to your question is, I highly suspect that the index cards were used up to at least 1964, and more than likely well into the 1980s. Computerization of records did not begin as a common practice until the late 1980s, which was nearly a decade after Winchester got out of the firearms manufacturing business. Somewhere in my vast pile of research material, I have images of Model 1873 and Model 1886 index card records.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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