Legit 1892 16” rifle?? |Winchester Rifles|Forum|Winchester Collector

The letter states carbine and doesn’t list barrel length, so that means standard 20″, and this gun is a rifle, I would say it was put together in the not to distant past.

Tedk said
Bidding currently at $1,525.00 with 4 days+ remaining
  

Somebody is going to get burnt 

Is the Seller being clever by describing the item as a “rifle carbine” and disclosing the Cody letter, which by omission proves the original barrel length as 20″,  at the very last of thirty photos?  The more I read of his description, the more weasel words I find. 

He implies Madis supports his assertions of rarity but does not cite any passage in any of that author’s published works. 

Never does he say outright that the gun is unaltered and genuine. 

Let’s see. The elements of fraud at common law are these:  an intentional representation of fact that is false and is done knowingly or recklessly, with the intent that the other party rely upon it, and that the other party justifiably relied upon it to his financial detriment. All provable by direct and indirect evidence. 

Usually, a false seller gets away with it because civil cases are expensive and not economically worth the time and trouble. Unless he defrauds an exceedingly wealthy and especially outraged buyer who also has influence in the State having jurisdiction. By that, I mean influence with the governor or the attorney general. 

‐‐——————-  Some typical defenses

I made an honest mistake.

What I wrote was only my opinion.

What I wrote was true.

I never said it was original and unaltered. 

It was like it is when I bought it. 

I sold the gun “as is”. 

The buyer knew what he was getting.

The buyer should have known what he was getting.

The buyer suffered no loss because the gun is worth what he paid for it. 

‐-‐—————————- Lifting the veil in deposition

In the context of a Winchester Model 1892, what is the physical difference between a carbine and a rifle? 

In the same context, are carbines with barrels shorter than 20 inches rare? 

More valuable? 

In the same context, are rifles with barrels shorter than 24 inches rare? 

More valuable? 

I show you this bound book marked exhibit P-12, which has already been admitted in evidence as your official dealer record of firearm transactions. Please show me from whom you bought the Plaintiff’s rifle, exhibit P-1. 

In what condition was the P-1 rifle when you bought it? 

How much did you pay for it?

How long was the barrel? 

Did you make any alterations to the P-1 rifle after you bought it? 

Do you hold yourself out as an expert on Winchester short barreled Model 1892 rifles and carbines? 

[Voir dire to disqualify Defendant as an expert on the particular subject.] 

Have you read any of the works of Mr. Madis, the author to whom you referred in your auction description? 

On what works did you rely in representing the P-1 rifle was rare? 

Is originality of condition of any value in a rare firearm? 

Rifle P-1, when you sold it, was not in factory original condition when you sold it. True?

and so on, throughout a very long day. 

‐—‐———————–A LESSON FOR A PROSPECTIVE BIDDER.

ASK WRITTEN QUESTIONS AND GET WRITTEN ANSWERS, BEFORE YOU OFFER.

Unwitnessed oral representations are not worth the paper they are not written on. IF YOU GET WEASILY ANSWERS, DO WITHOUT. BUY THE GUN, NOT THE DESCRIPTION. 

Remind me to sell Zeb only guns with full descriptions, terms, and conditions…

I’m an unabashed Madis fan but when somebody uses his writings to support claims of rarity or manufacture date it’s a red flag for me. I do enjoy some of the creative writing exercises we sometimes find disguised as descriptions, great entertainment. Funny thing is the gun appears to be an honest example in the pics with consistent wear and no sign of more than a passing encounter with our friend Bubba. I admit it’s a very unusual example and I likely missed a few issues but it could be the result of someone simply making the best of two or more damaged or unusable rifles to make one useable firearm instead of buying a new one. We live in a throwaway world, refreshing to think of a time where people would use their time and talent to fix stuff. 

Mike

I bet one of the best lessons you ever learned.  I have had one too.