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June 15, 2024
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I talked about my First model 1894 s/n 3543 rebuilt previously. The gunsmith that attached the barrel for me fired one cowboy action test round and declared an excessive headspace issue of 0.010. I recently picked up some Forster headspace gauges to check a carbine that was also (accurately) diagnosed with a headspace issue. Using them on this rifle, the action did not close on the Go, No-Go, or Field gauges. My takeaway, this rifle pre-dates the SAAMI specs so not a perfect test, but if there were a major headspace issue, the action likely would have closed on the No-Go and/or Field…more testing required.
Working on the theory that an early 1894 likely has a tight chamber in combination with a lower pressure cowboy action round might have prevented the case head from being forced back into the bolt face and reseating/flattening the primer. The result is a raised primer presenting as a headspace issue.
To check the chamber tightness, I performed a drop test with a factory round. By this I mean I opened the action, held the rifle vertically and barrel down, held a factory round above the chamber and dropped it to see if it would seat fully to the rim. My result was the rim was about ~1/16″ above the chamber mouth. I then used some Hoppes and Q-Tip to clean the chamber area, it wasn’t that dirty. Did the drop test again, no change in results. I then put a small amount of gun oil in the chamber and repeated the drop test. After a few drops the round ultimately fell flush with the chamber. Ultimately, I think this confirms a tight chamber for modern factory rounds.
The action closes up tight over factory rounds using just two fingers on the lever. So mechanically, I considered everything sound.
Yesterday, I decided to test fire this guy. I put three rounds through it, pictures are below.
I’m not an expert at all, but I see clean brass with no swelling, bulges, or distortion, no damage to the rims, and primers that are slightly proud of flush. My diagnosis is that this rifle is likely safe for occasional shooting using Cowboy Action loads.
I really don’t intend to shoot it often, but would like to be able to get it out of the wall hanger status the gunsmith put it in.
Long way of saying, what do you all think?
March 31, 2009
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The cases don’t look bad but the primers are backing out a little. Could be a headspace issue or a pressure issue. The max headspace for your Winchester is .007″. So when the gunsmith got .010″ your gun is out of spec by .003″. The average human hair is about .004″. It’s funny that the go gauge would not close? The no go should not close if you are in the SAAMI Spec range. If it does it tells you that there is too much headspace. I am not really familiar with the field gauge so I looked it up. Many of our cartridges do not show up in the SAAMI specs because quit a few of them were out of production when SAAMI was formed. You will find specs for the ones that are still being manufactured like the 45-70. Are you sure you have the correct gauges? 38-55 is not found in the SAAMI specs. Excessive headspace can be removed by bushing the bolt or shaving a little off the barrel. If you do the barrel it won’t line up where the barrel address was before.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/no-go-vs-field-hs-guage.5724/
August 27, 2014
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Can’t comment on the headspace issues, but ‘rebuilt previously’ is the operative term here
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
June 15, 2024
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Chuck said
The cases don’t look bad but the primers are backing out a little. Could be a headspace issue or a pressure issue. The max headspace for your Winchester is .007″. So when the gunsmith got .010″ your gun is out of spec by .003″. The average human hair is about .004″. It’s funny that the go gauge would not close? The no go should not close if you are in the SAAMI Spec range. If it does it tells you that there is too much headspace. I am not really familiar with the field gauge so I looked it up. Many of our cartridges do not show up in the SAAMI specs because quit a few of them were out of production when SAAMI was formed. You will find specs for the ones that are still being manufactured like the 45-70. Are you sure you have the correct gauges? 38-55 is not found in the SAAMI specs. Excessive headspace can be removed by bushing the bolt or shaving a little off the barrel. If you do the barrel it won’t line up where the barrel address was before.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/no-go-vs-field-hs-guage.5724/
I bought the Forster 30-30 gauges which are good for 219 Donalson Wasp, 25-35 WCF, 7-30 Waters, 30-30 Winchester, 30 Herrett, 303 Savage, 307 Win, 32-40, 32 Winchester Special, 356 Win, 357 Herrett, 38-55 WCF
Clymer gauges are sized/spec’d the same way. I was able to confirm this with their customer service.
Of course there is the caveat that using these gauges on pre-SAAMI guns may have varying results.
March 31, 2009
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Alaska94 said
I bought the Forster 30-30 gauges which are good for 219 Donalson Wasp, 25-35 WCF, 7-30 Waters, 30-30 Winchester, 30 Herrett, 303 Savage, 307 Win, 32-40, 32 Winchester Special, 356 Win, 357 Herrett, 38-55 WCF
Clymer gauges are sized/spec’d the same way. I was able to confirm this with their customer service.
Of course there is the caveat that using these gauges on pre-SAAMI guns may have varying results.
That’s good to know that someone makes some gauges. I have never looked for any of the old ones.
September 28, 2016
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It might be as simple as changing out the locking block that goes up against the back of the bolt. If that does not work the bolt and locking block could be swapped out. As both of these components wear, head space increases. I’ve got a few low mileage bolts (read, rifles that were not used much but the receivers were Swiss cheesed for various scope mounts) but I am out of locking blocks if you are interested.
Erin
November 5, 2014
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I do not know if this will help or not, but I recently had the opportunity to check out and fire a 30 WCF… It happens to be a 3-digit (1936) Model 70 (hence a bolt action). The rifle has been around a long while, i.e. wasn’t built “yesterday” like so many, and may even be legit…
In any event, whenever I’m shooting a rifle of unknown origin I like to check headspace first. I am not a gunsmith and do not barrel/re-barrel rifles, so I content myself with using a Field Gauge (maximum tolerated “safe” headspace) upon which the action should not close.
SAAMI chamber specs for 30-30 WIN specify a rim depth of 0.063″ (min) to 0.070″ (max) onto which the rimmed cartridge must headspace. My Forster Field Gauge (made to SAAMI specs) has a rim thickness of exactly 0.070″. When I tried it in the rifle the bolt would only close about 10-15 degrees. Which is good since it means that the headspace is less than 0.070″. Yes, I did it properly, i.e. with the bolt sleeve/striker assembly out of the bolt AND the extractor removed…
The ammunition I used was Federal 170 gr round nose of recent manufacture. Not exactly a “hot rod” round, not a cowboy load but safe for old M94s, etc. The rim thickness on the cases measure 0.057 to 0.058″, so less than the Maximum SAAMI specified cartridge rim thickness of 0.063″.
Why am I saying all this? Because when I fire the rifle, the primers are set back as much as 0.010″ (as best I can measure with a dial caliper). There are no signs of pressure, bulges, or flattening of the primer. The rifle feeds/fires/extracts perfectly. To me this sounds like Alaska94’s experience described above. It’s like the case isn’t being pushed back hard enough against the bolt breech to re-seat the primer. In other words, 0.057″ rim thickness + 0.010″ primer setback = 0.067″ headspace, and I know actual headspace is measurably less than 0.070″.
I don’t think I have a problem and I’m not sure Alaska94 has one either…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
March 31, 2009
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Louis Luttrell said
Why am I saying all this? Because when I fire the rifle, the primers are set back as much as 0.010″ (as best I can measure with a dial caliper). There are no signs of pressure, bulges, or flattening of the primer. The rifle feeds/fires/extracts perfectly. To me this sounds like Alaska94’s experience described above. It’s like the case isn’t being pushed back hard enough against the bolt breech to re-seat the primer. In other words, 0.057″ rim thickness + 0.010″ primer setback = 0.067″ headspace, and I know actual headspace is measurably less than 0.070″.
I don’t think I have a problem and I’m not sure Alaska94 has one either…
Best,
Lou
Someone once asked me why I always remove the primers as my first step when reloading. I do it because it is not unusual for a primer to back out or deform some and I don’t want it to mess up my inspection. I don’t know how much because I have never measured them. When I seat or measure primers and primer pockets I use a very accurate tool.
June 15, 2024
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Louis Luttrell said
I do not know if this will help or not, but I recently had the opportunity to check out and fire a 30 WCF… It happens to be a 3-digit (1936) Model 70 (hence a bolt action). The rifle has been around a long while, i.e. wasn’t built “yesterday” like so many, and may even be legit…
In any event, whenever I’m shooting a rifle of unknown origin I like to check headspace first. I am not a gunsmith and do not barrel/re-barrel rifles, so I content myself with using a Field Gauge (maximum tolerated “safe” headspace) upon which the action should not close.
SAAMI chamber specs for 30-30 WIN specify a rim depth of 0.063″ (min) to 0.070″ (max) onto which the rimmed cartridge must headspace. My Forster Field Gauge (made to SAAMI specs) has a rim thickness of exactly 0.070″. When I tried it in the rifle the bolt would only close about 10-15 degrees. Which is good since it means that the headspace is less than 0.070″. Yes, I did it properly, i.e. with the bolt sleeve/striker assembly out of the bolt AND the extractor removed…
The ammunition I used was Federal 170 gr round nose of recent manufacture. Not exactly a “hot rod” round, not a cowboy load but safe for old M94s, etc. The rim thickness on the cases measure 0.057 to 0.058″, so less than the Maximum SAAMI specified cartridge rim thickness of 0.063″.
Why am I saying all this? Because when I fire the rifle, the primers are set back as much as 0.010″ (as best I can measure with a dial caliper). There are no signs of pressure, bulges, or flattening of the primer. The rifle feeds/fires/extracts perfectly. To me this sounds like Alaska94’s experience described above. It’s like the case isn’t being pushed back hard enough against the bolt breech to re-seat the primer. In other words, 0.057″ rim thickness + 0.010″ primer setback = 0.067″ headspace, and I know actual headspace is measurably less than 0.070″.
I don’t think I have a problem and I’m not sure Alaska94 has one either…
Best,
Lou
Thank you very much for this reply. It’s very logical and is seemingly the same results I’m getting.
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
Louis Luttrell said
Why am I saying all this? Because when I fire the rifle, the primers are set back as much as 0.010″ (as best I can measure with a dial caliper). There are no signs of pressure, bulges, or flattening of the primer. The rifle feeds/fires/extracts perfectly. To me this sounds like Alaska94’s experience described above. It’s like the case isn’t being pushed back hard enough against the bolt breech to re-seat the primer. In other words, 0.057″ rim thickness + 0.010″ primer setback = 0.067″ headspace, and I know actual headspace is measurably less than 0.070″.
I don’t think I have a problem and I’m not sure Alaska94 has one either…
Best,
Lou
Someone once asked me why I always remove the primers as my first step when reloading. I do it because it is not unusual for a primer to back out or deform some and I don’t want it to mess up my inspection. I don’t know how much because I have never measured them. When I seat or measure primers and primer pockets I use a very accurate tool.
https://bullettipping.com/products/precision-primer-gauge/
I do much the same thing with all of my “rifle” cartridges, but for pistol cases, I tumble (clean) them with the spent primer still in place.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
December 25, 2016
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I tumble my spent rifle cases with primer in also. I find it easier to dump the media from the long cases. I can then also be certain my flash hole is clear as the decapping pin had to pass through to clear the old primer. A 6 of one, half dozen of another choice? I m tumbling larger cases typically loading .270 or .06.
March 31, 2009
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Ricklin said
I tumble my spent rifle cases with primer in also. I find it easier to dump the media from the long cases. I can then also be certain my flash hole is clear as the decapping pin had to pass through to clear the old primer. A 6 of one, half dozen of another choice? I m tumbling larger cases typically loading .270 or .06.
You bring up a good point. I always check the flash holes before priming. It is not unusual for the cleaning media to get caught in the flash holes.
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
Ricklin said
I tumble my spent rifle cases with primer in also. I find it easier to dump the media from the long cases. I can then also be certain my flash hole is clear as the decapping pin had to pass through to clear the old primer. A 6 of one, half dozen of another choice? I m tumbling larger cases typically loading .270 or .06.
You bring up a good point. I always check the flash holes before priming. It is not unusual for the cleaning media to get caught in the flash holes.
I always individually inspect and clean the primer pockets on all of my rifle cartridge after tumbling them. The only issue I have run into are primer pockets that have enlarged a bit too much. My 7MM Mag cases do that after 3 – 4 reload cycles, and my 30-06 cases after 12+ reload cycles.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 7, 2015
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I don’t think my dry media effectively cleans the primer pockets but I decap and resize rifle brass in the same step so the primer pockets have a good chance of getting clogged by media. Clearing the flash hole gives me a chance to inspect and clean the primer pockets.
Back to the OP I’ve observed primers backing out a bit with light loads, a more robust load will push the case back and seat the primer back into the pocket. Trust the gauges.
Mike
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