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November 3, 2015
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After 35 years, I’ve had 1873s, 1876s, 1886s, 1892s, 1894s as well as all of the early Winchester semi-autos and a couple Model 70s. No 1866s or 1895s. Original 1866s are pretty spendy and I could never justify one, not with my other addictions. However, while not cheap, the 1895 was still within reach. I don’t know why I waited so long to acquire one, especially after seeing examples (sometimes briefly) in the favorite movies of my youth like King Solomon’s Mines, Ride the High Country and Rough Riders, along with reading about Roosevelt in Africa, the Texas Rangers and the Arizona Rangers. I initially thought I wanted a carbine in 30-40 Krag, but at the end of the day, I had to go with a 405 with British proofs so chances are the rifle went to Africa or India. This one was made in 1904 – first year of the 405 – asked for a letter from Cody. The proofs are interesting because there is reference to Laflin & Rand. A gun powder manufacturer. I’ve never seen this before. See second photo.
After reading about this caliber I knew I wanted a couple of things. First, it had to have the shotgun butt plate. Second, it had to have a Lyman 21 sight. This rifle didn’t have the latter but it was too nice to pass up. The Lymans seem to be pretty rare but I’m keeping a lookout for one. I have not shot it yet, only having some pre-1932 Winchester rounds at the moment, but I’m thinking about ordering some newly produced Hornady. Has anyone used the Hornady in their old rifles? How about the Buffalo Bore 405 ammunition? Any advice or comments would by welcome. First photo is my ode to turn of the 20th century hunting in India with an old Bombay Bowler, period shikar book with notes about prey in India, blackbuck horns, 405 solids and soft points with WRA Co. headstamps in a Heiser cartridge belt, and Gurkha Kukri knife.
Thanks for looking!
JohnL
WACA No. 9886. Constantly learning about Model 1907 and Model 1910 Self-Loading Rifles.
April 15, 2005
Online
John,
You disappoint me… apparently, you do not have a Winchester Single Shot rifle in your collection as it too is missing from your list of Winchester models.
In regard to your question about the current Hornady 405 ammo, it is loaded to the exact same specifications as the original Winchester factory ammo 120+ years ago. I have shot more than 5 boxes of it in my original Single Shot (high-wall) rifle (which it shoots extremely accurately).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
August 14, 2021
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Agree with Bert, Also I would stay away from Buffalo Bore.
November 3, 2015
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Bert and Steven,
Thank you for the replies and confirming the Hornady ammo is ok to shoot in these beautiful old rifles. I’ve been a disappointment to a lot of people, mostly wives. I’ll have to take another look at the single shots.
Best,
John
WACA No. 9886. Constantly learning about Model 1907 and Model 1910 Self-Loading Rifles.
January 20, 2023
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John,
Congratulations on your acquisition. The British proof is icing on the cake. The unscathed condition of a gun that undoubtedly saw some “jungle” [to the Brits the high plains of Kenya was jungle, ice on the ground notwithstanding], is proof it was well cared for.
My experience with the Hornady ammunition is less than Bert’s — a mere three rounds from my only box of it — but my memory of it compels me to offer a little unsolicited advice.
Theodore Roosevelt’s 1895/405 (one of them; he had Winchester build a duplicate spare for Africa) is on display at Cody and was fitted by the factory at T.R.’s request with a Silver’s red rubber recoil pad.
My 1895 is only a USRAC reproduction but it was built with a steel shotgun buttplate. I would never suggest you alter your prized original but it might be well to lay in the “Magnum” version of a PAST strap-on recoil pad.
Before Hornady quit offering brass and bullet components, I bought a little. I intend to load some to 40/72 velocities for a little less fun at the range.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 3, 2015
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Bill,
By all accounts this round is nothing to sneeze at in the recoil department. I have a strap on recoil pad around here somewhere that I will use – I’m not proud – if Teddy needed it then so will I.
had anyone seen Laflin & Rand load data on a Winchester before?
thanks for the reply!
WACA No. 9886. Constantly learning about Model 1907 and Model 1910 Self-Loading Rifles.
June 26, 2013
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John Lindly said
After 35 years, I’ve had 1873s, 1876s, 1886s, 1892s, 1894s as well as all of the early Winchester semi-autos and a couple Model 70s. No 1866s or 1895s. Original 1866s are pretty spendy and I could never justify one, not with my other addictions. However, while not cheap, the 1895 was still within reach. I don’t know why I waited so long to acquire one, especially after seeing examples (sometimes briefly) in the favorite movies of my youth like King Solomon’s Mines, Ride the High Country and Rough Riders, along with reading about Roosevelt in Africa, the Texas Rangers and the Arizona Rangers. I initially thought I wanted a carbine in 30-40 Krag, but at the end of the day, I had to go with a 405 with British proofs so chances are the rifle went to Africa or India. This one was made in 1904 – first year of the 405 – asked for a letter from Cody. The proofs are interesting because there is reference to Laflin & Rand. A gun powder manufacturer. I’ve never seen this before. See second photo.
After reading about this caliber I knew I wanted a couple of things. First, it had to have the shotgun butt plate. Second, it had to have a Lyman 21 sight. This rifle didn’t have the latter but it was too nice to pass up. The Lymans seem to be pretty rare but I’m keeping a lookout for one. I have not shot it yet, only having some pre-1932 Winchester rounds at the moment, but I’m thinking about ordering some newly produced Hornady. Has anyone used the Hornady in their old rifles? How about the Buffalo Bore 405 ammunition? Any advice or comments would by welcome. First photo is my ode to turn of the 20th century hunting in India with an old Bombay Bowler, period shikar book with notes about prey in India, blackbuck horns, 405 solids and soft points with WRA Co. headstamps in a Heiser cartridge belt, and Gurkha Kukri knife.
Thanks for looking!
JohnL
Congrats! I believe this is the same rifle since I was eyeing it as well on GI. I think you got it for a very reasonable price.
Don
November 3, 2015
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Don,
that is the one. I always wanted one so I decided to just go for it given the condition and price. It’s better than it looks in the photos. Thank you for the reply.
John
WACA No. 9886. Constantly learning about Model 1907 and Model 1910 Self-Loading Rifles.
January 20, 2023
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Wow! Thanks to Don I just looked at the GI pix. You really did well, John.
Although I’ve not seen an 1895 with British proof, there were a series of articles in John Amber’s Gun Digest on the subject of foreign proof marks, one of which illustrated the marks and legends of the London Proof House on an American weapon. I recall it gave the pressure of the proof load in “tonnes” and some other details of the load.
I can’t read the legend in the photo clearly enough to make out the name of the powder used to nitro proof your gun. I can read “58” grains of Laflin & Rand but not more than that. L&R was a leading American spirit in developing smokeless, including Bullseye and Unique, until they were bought by Dupont.
So tell us what the proof load was. If it was 58 grains of Bullseye, I’d bet the Proofmaster pulled a mighty long lanyard!!
Bill
”
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
April 15, 2005
Online
Bill, et al,
As it just so happens, my 405 WCF Single Shot (high-wall) has British proof marks, and yes, it is as “ton” marked on it.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 15, 2020
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Bert, my 1895 winchester 38-72 SN 42125 dates to Aug 1903 and letters with a round barrel, but now sports an octagonal barrel with 38-72 on bottom of barrel. The barrel & receiver are both stamped with PW in oval. Does this mean the barrel was installed by Winchester and if so how does this affect value?
Don
June 26, 2013
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John Lindly said
Don,
that is the one. I always wanted one so I decided to just go for it given the condition and price. It’s better than it looks in the photos. Thank you for the reply.
John
It’s a dandy for sure. In my opinion, it could have gone for another $2K than what you paid. “Don’t shoot your eye out!”
Don
November 7, 2015
Online
Congrats, John. It took me a long time to warm up to the 1895 but when I saw one in 30US sporting Lyman receiver sights AND pretty wood on Mark Douglas’ table at Cody I overcame my prejudice. I’m no stranger to thumpers but as a handloader with an interest in cartridge history I was very curious about the 30US cartridge. I can spot a receiver or tang sight on a Winchester at 20 paces. I’m also a TR fan so I’m surprised a 405 hasn’t followed me home, yet.
I’m sure you’ll have some fun with this rifle and though I have no experience with this cartridge I would go with the above recommendations of Hornady ammo. They are my go-to component source for bullets and brass.
I can certainly commiserate with you on disappointing the fairer sex, maybe I’m better off with Winchesters. They don’t mid going back in the safe when I’m done playing with them. 
Mike
September 22, 2011
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deerhunter said
John Lindly said
Don,
that is the one. I always wanted one so I decided to just go for it given the condition and price. It’s better than it looks in the photos. Thank you for the reply.
John
It’s a dandy for sure. In my opinion, it could have gone for another $2K than what you paid. “Don’t shoot your eye out!”
Don
I don’t know, that seems like a lot. $6200+???
I bid on it when it was offered for sale at Amoskeag but thought it was a bit high at $3267.
This rifle came out of Goshen, Connecticut, owned quite some time by a friend, Chris Marino of Autumn Gun Works.
is there, or will there be, a letter to post?
November 3, 2015
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That second photo got completely distorted somehow. This is a better shot.
WACA No. 9886. Constantly learning about Model 1907 and Model 1910 Self-Loading Rifles.
September 22, 2011
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How do British proofmarks affect value? I don’t mind them, in fact like them, suggests shipment to Britain for use on the Dark Continent.
I think others don’t view them so charitably.
April 15, 2005
Online
86Win said
Bert, my 1895 winchester 38-72 SN 42125 dates to Aug 1903 and letters with a round barrel, but now sports an octagonal barrel with 38-72 on bottom of barrel. The barrel & receiver are both stamped with PW in oval. Does this mean the barrel was installed by Winchester and if so how does this affect value?
Don
Don,
Do you have a CFM factory letter for it? If so, does it have a “R&R” entry after July 1905?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 3, 2015
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Mrcvs. – I like the British proofs too. Suggests some history in Africa or India.
Bert. – I got the record search and the rifle was received at the warehouse April 24, 1904 and shipped out from the warehouse April 28, 1904. Caliber 405, Shotgun butt. No information as to where or to whom. No R&R listed. This has got to be one of the first 405s to come out of the factory?
WACA No. 9886. Constantly learning about Model 1907 and Model 1910 Self-Loading Rifles.
April 15, 2005
Online
mrcvs said
How do British proofmarks affect value? I don’t mind them, in fact like them, suggests shipment to Britain for use on the Dark Continent.
I think others don’t view them so charitably.
I am not of the opinion that British proof marks have much (if any) effect (positive or negative) on the value of a Winchester, especially a 405 WCF or any of the Express cartridges.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
April 15, 2005
Online
John Lindly said
Mrcvs. – I like the British proofs too. Suggests some history in Africa or India.
Bert. – I got the record search and the rifle was received at the warehouse April 24, 1904 and shipped out from the warehouse April 28, 1904. Caliber 405, Shotgun butt. No information as to where or to whom. No R&R listed. This has got to be one of the first 405s to come out of the factory?
I do not know exactly when or what serial number was one the first Model 1895 in 405 WCF, but if you ask Brad Dunbar, he can probably answer that question. What I do know, is that the first 405 WCF rifle was a Single Shot. Winchester developed and tested the 405 cartridge using a Single Shot rifle.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
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