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Fake super grade 70?

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Geno

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April 25, 2025 - 9:00 pm

Apologies if this has been posted: https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/winchester-rifles—model-70-super-grade/winchester-pre-64-super-grade-270-featherweight-1-of-only-248.cfm?gun_id=103072868#lg-10

It doesn’t look right to me, but I know little about model 70’s and I’m hoping to learn more from you on it.

Louis Luttrell

Winchester, VA

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April 25, 2025 - 9:30 pm

Hi Geno-

This rifle and the reputation of the “dealer” came up recently on the 24 hour Campfire “Winchester Collectors” forum. I made a RARE exception to my rule of not playing in that particularly messy sand box…

The two main criticisms of the rifle over there were that it had a 3-line barrel address (1955) on an early 1958 rifle and that the stock looked “refinished”… FWIW… I have ZERO connection to this rifle except as stated below…

Below is what I wrote… Just my opinions. They have not changed…

Lou

***

A little background from the ongoing WACA Model 70 survey (colored by my “anecdotal experience” 😉)… I’m not citing RR (Roger Rule) here but I am VERY familiar with his work…

The “three-line” Featherweight barrel address was the result of (probably) a single 270 WIN roll die used to mark a bunch of barrels in ’55. I’m told by people who should know, that these individual roll dies were good for about 1000 applications before they wore out. When I look at the survey data for 270 WIN STANDARD Featherweights (those barrels NOT marked “SUPER” and NOT rust blued), they (so far at least) all are on ’55 receivers… No surprises there, since Standard Featherweights were pretty good sellers and in general barrel dates and receiver dates tend to be close together in common M70 styles in common chamberings…

But… The SG Featherweight barrels (marked “SUPER” and sent for rust blue) were specialized parts. The SG Featherweight style was introduced in 1955 and sales just didn’t happen. In the survey, I currently have (31) “probably legit” SG Featherweights in 270 WIN recorded… Of those, I have under-barrel info on (11) of them… ALL (11) have ’55 barrel dates… Year the gun was assembled (1955 – 1958) doesn’t matter…

So… A “three-line” ’55 dated rust-blued “SUPER” marked 270 Winchester barrel on an early ’58 SG Featherweight does not freak me out. I’d have more questions if it were a Standard Featherweight…

It also happens that I once had this rifle in my hands… It was in the long-time collection of a Friend who let me catalog his entire collection for the survey… I have NOTHING to do with this rifle otherwise… But it was sold a couple years ago by Dave Morris (Frontier Guns on GI) and I saved Dave’s photos b/c I usually do that… The wood/metal finishes on the gun look MUCH better than poor Jacob Rothgeb’s poor attempt at photography… Jdr284’s pics look (to me) like he slathered Old West Snake Oil all over it and took pics with a cell phone… Look at his pics of the beater 338 Win Magnum Alaskan he posted today. Same appearance… That rough-looking Alaskan was not likely to have been refinished but it looks like crap too…

Lastly… I agree with nyrifleman that this particular GI seller does not have a reputation for honesty/integrity. I have never done business with Jacob Rothgeb, but would be suspicious…

A few addenda… 1) The WACA M70 survey is NOT publicly available and will NOT be in my lifetime… It’s being assembled as a research tool, not as an exercise in “fake busting”. None of the other WACA “historians” doing surveys are making them open to the public either (I talk to these guys)… 2) Data from an “observational survey” are just that. “Data” are not “facts”. (FWIW, the word “data” is a plural, the singular is “datum”)… 3) I have a few “quibbles” with this gun, but could not give an honest opinion w/o having it in-hand next to other examples. I DID NOT buy the gun, I already have one. 4) If you want to talk to me (God Forbid!!!) join WACA and contact me by PM…

Just my take…

Lou

WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters

Anthony

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April 25, 2025 - 10:59 pm

Lou,

Good for you on you’re stance! I support you and am one of the many that appreciate you, as you have helped more of us than we can ever even begin to think of. Many of us know that you’re a stand up guy, and for the few who don’t, let them read the post that you put up, as it’s worthy. IMO!

Anthony

Geno

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April 25, 2025 - 11:56 pm

Lou,

Thanks for your reply. Your right about the photos it was the look of the stock and the bluing that made me assume it was a fake, they both look refinished from the photos.

Sounds like it could actually be legit; if over priced.

oldcrankyyankee

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April 26, 2025 - 12:57 am

Well it sold

Louis Luttrell

Winchester, VA

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April 26, 2025 - 4:36 am

Geno-

I’m not voting one way or the other… Like I said on “The Fire” I have my own “quibbles” with the gun (but nothing damning)… Would give me pause, but not necessarily send me running/screaming for the exit…

For reference, here are a couple of Dave Morris’s pics from when he sold the gun (I save many of Dave’s pics b/c they’re much better than average). Poor Rothgeb’s photography is so bad that he hurts even himself!!!