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Hello all,
This is a fitting end to 2020. This rifle is listed on Gunbroker as a 16 inch trapper manufactured during 1898 and supported by a factory letter. But then the problems begin. The serial number is supposedly 71089 which would actually be from 1897 and be reflected in the letter. And there is the less than small fact that the actual data for that serial number shows a carbine in 44 WCF in and out of the warehouse in June and Aug of 1897, NOT a 16″ short barrel sporting rifle! Hmmm!!?? How could that be? If you look at the image of the supposed letter you begin to notice that on the line describing the octagon barrel that the “16 inch” notation is just a little bit lower than the rest of the typing in that line. Furthermore, the upper tang stamp is absolutely a Type 3 style which did not come into use until some twelve years after the supposed rifle was manufactured. And then there is the barrel markings which are on the left flat and the address stamp which is totally incorrect for the 1897 time period. And the rear sight position is incorrect for a short barrel rifle! I guess that when you don’t know what you are doing you REALLY don’t know what you are doing!!!
Be careful out there!
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Michael – I suspect I speak for everyone here when I say I am grateful for this service you continue to provide. We all benefit from not only learning of faked guns, but the process you provide of determining fakes is a valuable educational experience. This is, of course, particularly true for newer and younger collectors.
I looked at this carbine a few minutes ago. There is one aspect I am especially shaking my head over: “A+” gunbroker seller with 142 pieces of positive feedback! Yes indeed, “BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!”
steve004 said
Michael – I suspect I speak for everyone here when I say I am grateful for this service you continue to provide. We all benefit from not only learning of faked guns, but the process you provide of determining fakes is a valuable educational experience. This is, of course, particularly true for newer and younger collectors.I looked at this carbine a few minutes ago. There is one aspect I am especially shaking my head over: “A+” gunbroker seller with 142 pieces of positive feedback! Yes indeed, “BE CAREFUL OUT THERE!”
Thanks so much for your kind words. I truly appreciate them and thoroughly enjoy sharing what I have learned over the years. IT is of little value to keep it locked up and not shared.
With regard to the rating of the seller that is directly dependent on the knowledge of the buyers.
Happy New Year
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
steve004 said
There is one aspect I am especially shaking my head over: “A+” gunbroker seller with 142 pieces of positive feedback!
Doesn’t EVERY GB dealer have an “A+” rating? Or at least “A.” And some of the most flagrant fraudsters have the highest ratings, like “Dad’s Old Guns,” before he changed his handle!
Who ever put the rifle together may have done more than one. I bought an identical rifle to this one in Nov. 2003 at the Reno show. Serial number 171414. Not having the right books to look at at that time I depended on my memory and tape measure. 7 3/8″ fore end wood, magazine tube retaining band pin at 3 3/8″ from the muzzle, the the rear sight dovetail center was 4″ from the receiver. I saw the barrel markings were the type #4, but let that slide after being told that some receivers were assembled later in production due to being left at the “bottom of the barrel”. When I received the Museum Letter I found it lettered as a standard 38-40 rifle. I would probably be a lot more dismayed had I not discovered how accurate the little rifle is. When fired with duplicated high velocity loads I could get consistent sub 3″ groups a 100 yards. My eyes were much better back then. Is this a “lose/win” situation? RDB
P.S. It has the proof mark on the barrel, but not the receiver and is a slick handling little rifle.
rogertherelic said
When I received the Museum Letter I found it lettered as a standard 38-40 rifle.
For me, a punch in the gut! Probably too late now, but would be interesting to try re-selling it to the same dealer…without mentioning the letter, of course.
It takes a, “glass is half-full” kind of guy to see the, “lose/win” angle. Roger – my hat is off to you 🙂
steve004 said
It takes a, “glass is half-full” kind of guy to see the, “lose/win” angle. Roger – my hat is off to you 🙂
“Glass half full”??? Buy more wine! Simple solution!
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
clarence said
Doesn’t EVERY GB dealer have an “A+” rating? Or at least “A.” And some of the most flagrant fraudsters have the highest ratings, like “Dad’s Old Guns,” before he changed his handle!
Yes, that was my point. BE CAREFUL OUT THERE is a mantra that needs constant repetition. Things like positive feedback have very little validity these days. Unfortunately, this often has to be learned the hard way. The big advantage of the learning opportunities available by reading posts on this forum – you get the benefit of the lessons from others without the pain!
steve004 said
Yes, that was my point. BE CAREFUL OUT THERE is a mantra that needs constant repetition. Things like positive feedback have very little validity these days. Unfortunately, this often has to be learned the hard way. The big advantage of the learning opportunities available by reading posts on this forum – you get the benefit of the lessons from others without the pain!
Truer words have not been spoken. I’m with you 100% Steve on all of that.
Has anyone here enlightened this seller on his “fake” and if not I gladly will. I’ve done it before several times and usually get a cursing, oh well
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
I am new to collecting. So when something like this comes up does it do any good to contact Gunbroker to alert them?
I just hate to see someone taken.
DannyBoy said
I am new to collecting. So when something like this comes up does it do any good to contact Gunbroker to alert them?I just hate to see someone taken.
My take is that, no, it does not 
DannyBoy said
I am new to collecting. So when something like this comes up does it do any good to contact Gunbroker to alert them?I just hate to see someone taken.
ARE YOU KIDDING??? Ethics from an auction house? The greater the sale price, the greater their rake-off.
In the early days of ebay, it was possible to warn other bidders about a fraud or other rip-off by communicating with them directly. Ebay soon blocked that on the bogus pretext of “privacy concerns.” The REAL reason was “profit concerns”!
Henry Mero said
Has anyone here enlightened this seller on his “fake” and if not I gladly will. I’ve done it before several times and usually get a cursing, oh well
A cursing is at least an acknowledgement; the smart ones say nothing, knowing there’s nothing you can do to hurt them. If it were possible to “enlighten” the bidders as was once possible on ebay as I described above, it would be a very different story.
Michael,
Thanks for the “heads-up”. Very helpful and valuable information, as usual.
Happy New Year,
Al
And a little tip also for Danny Boy and others who may be new to collecting. Look at the “Inspection/Return Policy” line of the listing. Notice how this one reads “AS IS – No refund or exchange”. Think of that as a red flag, coiled up rattlesnake, small fire in a fireworks store, etc. Things that you REALLY want to stay away from. Basically, once you buy this “gem” it is yours. Your money is his. And it doesn’t matter what your reason is, you are stuck with it!
Take a deep breath. Take your time. Read carefully. Ask questions. There are LOTS of these rifles around. Most likely there will always be another one.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
twobit said
And a little tip also for Danny Boy and others who may be new to collecting. Look at the “Inspection/Return Policy” line of the listing. Notice how this one reads “AS IS – No refund or exchange”. Think of that as a red flag, coiled up rattlesnake, small fire in a fireworks store, etc. Things that you REALLY want to stay away from. Basically, once you buy this “gem” it is yours. Your money is his. And it doesn’t matter what your reason is, you are stuck with it!Take a deep breath. Take your time. Read carefully. Ask questions. There are LOTS of these rifles around. Most likely there will always be another one.
Michael
Well said! Thanks Michael for making it simple to understand. T/R
I see the seller of this, “Trapper” has updated the description to state the, “letter is a copy” and he will get a, “current worksheet.” I think we know what that worksheet will say. Whether he is surprised or not, we will never know the truth. I will concede that it might be he is the one who was hoodwinked and has no idea. I suspect this auction update stems from someone here contacting him.
November 7, 2015
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steve004 said
I see the seller of this, “Trapper” has updated the description to state the, “letter is a copy” and he will get a, “current worksheet.” I think we know what that worksheet will say. Whether he is surprised or not, we will never know the truth. I will concede that it might be he is the one who was hoodwinked and has no idea. I suspect this auction update stems from someone here contacting him.
That, or he’s one of the dozens of lurkers on here at any given time. As I type this there are six members and 73 guests online.
Mike
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