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What do you guys think of this rifle on GI? The current owner has had it since the 80’s and as far as he knows it is original. Any thoughts would be helpful. Thanks!
April 15, 2005
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In my opinion, that rifle has been restored. While it might be poor lighting in the photos, the color of the barrel bluing indicates that it is modern bluing versus rust bluing, and the caliber marking on the barrel is much too shallow as compared to other Model 1886s that I have observed from that same time period. The next issue is the finish on the stocks is too shiny (glossy) for the time period when that rifle was manufactured. The final issue I have is the case colors on the receiver frame are a bit too bright. My guess is that this rifle was restored by Roger’s Restoration (located in Placentia, CA) sometime in the past 30-years.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 31, 2009
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Bert, what do you think about the roll die marks? Caliber and barrel address.
April 15, 2005
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Chuck said
Bert, what do you think about the roll die marks? Caliber and barrel address.
The single picture of the Winchester address roll marking on the barrel is not clear enough to make a definitive assessment of it, but it does appear that the lower line is much deeper in depth than the upper line. As I previously mentioned, the caliber marking appears to be too light (shallow).
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
December 21, 2006
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This piece is another prime example of a gun needin’ a “hands on inspection” for Me to offer anything meaningful value wise . If it can be verified as “original” then I don’t think the asking price is outta sight, but if it is an obviously “restored”, piece then $$$????? My opinion only.
W.A.C.A. life member, Marlin Collectors Assn. charter and life member, C,S.S.A. member and general gun nut.
June 12, 2013
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I agree with Henry. My initial thoughts were gun looked right. I was questioning the case colors but they do vary. Bert has a more experienced eye at evaluating guns from photos but this is one I would want in hand to evaluate. Belly of action, case colors on butt plate. Serial number stamping. Price seems reasonable if correct and I would be surprised that this doesn’t renew interest on item that has been listed for a while and we will see it sold
November 19, 2006
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Bert H. said
Chuck said
Bert, what do you think about the roll die marks? Caliber and barrel address.
The single picture of the Winchester address roll marking on the barrel is not clear enough to make a definitive assessment of it, but it does appear that the lower line is much deeper in depth than the upper line. As I previously mentioned, the caliber marking appears to be too light (shallow).
Bert
Yes, it looks like a lot of difference in the depth between the two lines.
I had asked for some additional pictures, but haven’t received anything yet. I am 50/50 on the case hardening, I agree on stock finish looking like to much gloss. I hadn’t noticed the caliber marking concerns. The quality of pictures certainly leave some uncertainty either way.
Seems like getting stiff-armed on the photo request tells you what you need to know? Or did the seller come through?
Still for sale…
April 30, 2023
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I always wonder why guns like that are listed in places like GB or GI in the first place. It would seem to me that anyone knowing what they have would run that thing through a high-end auction service….not that it can’t be legit, but the first red flag for me if where it’s listed and how painstakingly careful were they with photos…looks like an older, but nicely done professional refinish to me, with like Bert said, the bluing being the biggest indicator.
January 20, 2023
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In my opinion, the wood has been refinished, albeit carefully. I once owned a very early deluxe 1907 self-loader with exhibition wood and other bells and whistles, which had been carefully kept and occasionally used. The varnish on that grade of wood does not finish out that bright. And there were minute hickies in the varnish. (Winchester’s “oil finish” had driers in it. A rose by any other name….)
I also seriously doubt any rifle of that age can survive without a few handling marks, not necessarily in the wood but in the topcoat, just from being taken out of a safe or case. A close look at the wood surfaces with a glass will reveal such marks. If there are none or too few after materially more than a Century….you are seeing a performance of the Bolshoi Ballet.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
February 17, 2022
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Jeremy P said
I always wonder why guns like that are listed in places like GB or BI in the first place. It would seem to me that anyone knowing what they have would run that thing through a high-end auction service….not that it can’t be legit, but the first red flag for me if where it’s listed and how painstakingly careful were they with photos…looks like an older, but nicely done professional refinish to me, with like Bert said, the bluing being the biggest indicator.
I would agree Jeremy with some of what you said, BUT, there are legit guns out there that get listed on the internet. Just have to be aware of what your looking at and be patient. I think the majority of what I see are just people looking to score the big bucks from a less than knowledgeable buyer. Plus maybe they just don’t want to deal with an auction house because they didn’t like what they heard when the presented the gun. I know I have perused those sights alot and actually have found a couple good deals. Like my ELW 86 in 45-90. I saw it and kept an eye on it for a while, after 6 months guy dropped his price by 35%, I offered even less and wound up with it for half his original asking price. Guess he got tired of waiting or realized it wasn’t really worth what he thought it was. But I do see alot of junk list too.
But this was a good deal
April 30, 2023
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oldcrankyyankee said
Jeremy P said
I always wonder why guns like that are listed in places like GB or GI in the first place. It would seem to me that anyone knowing what they have would run that thing through a high-end auction service….not that it can’t be legit, but the first red flag for me if where it’s listed and how painstakingly careful were they with photos…looks like an older, but nicely done professional refinish to me, with like Bert said, the bluing being the biggest indicator.
I would agree Jeremy with some of what you said, BUT, there are legit guns out there that get listed on the internet.
Yes, this is what I was saying, I know it’s true but I have to get over the red flags of someone not going all out while trying to sell a $25k+ gun and that ain’t easy for me!
November 7, 2015
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Looks too good to be true. We all know the rest of that axiom.
Mike
January 20, 2023
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I don’t suggest the Leopard change his spots but it is remarkable the difference in the attitude of Brits about refinished Best Quality Holland and Purdey guns. Granted, a lot of the re-finish work has been done by the factory that made the guns in question. Nevertheless, a cased, matched pair of Purdey bird guns does not sell at any huge discount just because the barrels have been “re-blacked”, the checkering patterns re-cut, and the stock and forearm refinished– even if the LOP has been increased with spacers and a pad!
When the terms for getting a new London Best. resemble a federal felony – $150,000 USD and five years — you can bet the demand for a seldom available used one is going to be fierce.
Part of it is the fact these guns get handed down the generations and younger folk usually run bigger than their ancestors. Tastes change, too and we know Purdey et al. have in recent decades bobbed and re-choked a lot of long-barreled doubles.
The salient history of a 1925 Holland Royal double is that it was made by Holland & Holland of Bruton Street, London — not whether it has been refinished (because it probably has been and more than once) or once was choked differently.
If I were king of all I surveyed (like Yertle the Turtle before his fall) and with money to burn, I would order my Holland Royal in 20 gauge with a semi-beavertail forearm and Briley choke tubes — thinking of future resale by my executor. Even a used small bore London double can go for a price approaching the national debt of small countries.
For those wanting to buy and hunt or shoot a mechanically fine Winchester, a nice refinish is an opportunity, not a problem – provided the fact is disclosed and the piece priced accordingly. The sin is in the misrepresentation and, in my opinion, a gun can be misrepresented just by pricing it as if it were all original when the seller has reason to believe it isn’t.
My two cents, anyway.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015
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I think we may be seeing a shift in the attitude towards non-original guns. The traditional collector will likely be the last to see or admit it but we have all seen refinished, altered or freshened guns sell for more than a purist believes they should be worth. I have seen more than a few expensive shotguns that have been adjusted or refinished for owners who use them regularly in sporting events. Simply put, a well-made shotgun was built to be shot a lot and will outlast the finish and quite possibly may be re-stocked to match a shooter’s physique or whims. The high-end shotgun market is not the same as the collector firearm market but some of the players, buyers and craftsmen, are often the same. As Bill points out I believe disclosure is an important part of acceptance of this shift but someday we may see a collector market that appreciates the craftsmen who restore a fine firearm as much as the ones who originally built it.
Mike
November 19, 2006
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oldcrankyyankee said
Jeremy P said
I always wonder why guns like that are listed in places like GB or BI in the first place. It would seem to me that anyone knowing what they have would run that thing through a high-end auction service….not that it can’t be legit, but the first red flag for me if where it’s listed and how painstakingly careful were they with photos…looks like an older, but nicely done professional refinish to me, with like Bert said, the bluing being the biggest indicator.
I would agree Jeremy with some of what you said, BUT, there are legit guns out there that get listed on the internet. Just have to be aware of what your looking at and be patient. I think the majority of what I see are just people looking to score the big bucks from a less than knowledgeable buyer. Plus maybe they just don’t want to deal with an auction house because they didn’t like what they heard when the presented the gun. I know I have perused those sights alot and actually have found a couple good deals. Like my ELW 86 in 45-90. I saw it and kept an eye on it for a while, after 6 months guy dropped his price by 35%, I offered even less and wound up with it for half his original asking price. Guess he got tired of waiting or realized it wasn’t really worth what he thought it was. But I do see alot of junk list too.
But this was a good deal
Tom –
I never tire of seeing your .45-90 ELW! That rifle is a stunner! And the configuration is about as perfect is at gets to fit my tastes.
