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For some reason I can’t reply on the Current Future & Market Forecast thread. There is no add reply or quote box????
Anyway, you guys need to back off on the black guns. Just because they aren’t your deal they are still fun guns to have. Remember it is not the gun it’s the nut behind them…I know you really mean you don’t like some of the people that have them. I have 2. I won’t own more. They are not collectable to me. I also have a lot of guns that aren’t Winchesters. I am a shooter, hunter and a collector. The black guns fit into 2 of these areas for me. Some of you guys sound like some of the old farts I hung out with when I was 50 years younger.
Chuck said
For some reason I can’t reply on the Current Future & Market Forecast thread. There is no add reply or quote box????Anyway, you guys need to back off on the black guns. Just because they aren’t your deal they are still fun guns to have. Remember it is not the gun it’s the nut behind them…I know you really mean you don’t like some of the people that have them. I have 2. I won’t own more. They are not collectable to me. I also have a lot of guns that aren’t Winchesters. I am a shooter, hunter and a collector. The black guns fit into 2 of these areas for me. Some of you guys sound like some of the old farts I hung out with when I was 50 years younger.
First of all, I believe in brutal self-examination. Objectively, I think it is likely I meet the definition of, “old fart.” I didn’t used to. And I’m not saying this because I’m proud of it.
I can see where black rifles have a place. Much like the various tools I own have their place. Some of the tools I have are fine pieces. Some cost more than a few pennies. Some are better quality than what you find at discount houses. Some come in handy and I’m glad I own them. I’m not against them. But like black rifles, they just don’t have the character and history that my vintage Winchesters (or Marlins, Savages, Bullards, Whitney’s, etc. etc.). Ok, I do have some tools that have some character. There are some that used to be my Dad’s. But like the vintage Winchesters, that’s because they have some history and character. The wooden handles on some of the woodworking tools are from a time gone by. For many, you can’t go in a store and purchase the same tool now. A Winchester (et al) is a tool, but it is also more than a tool.
While we’re expressing our biases, I don’t care for some black rifle owners. If you tell me you own a black rifle, I don’t automatically dislike you. Black rifles are the rage at the range I frequent. Many of the owners seem like decent enough guys. But there’s a significant group of them that I don’t care for. The “wanna-be soldier” types for example. I want to shout out, “are you serious?!” Instead, I just sit there quietly, while a steady stream of hot brass bounces off me. These guys seem to have a limitless amount of ammunition and they run magazine after magazine through. Many of these rifles are compensated. We have a covered tin roof. There are times I’ve had one of these guys on each side of me, each doing sustained rapid-fire with all that noise echoing off the roof – and to the side – where I am. An annoying and painful experience. I’ve had this happen so many times that no doubt it has fueled my dislike for these rifles. I would pay a lot extra to join a range that didn’t allow these rifles (and the pistol versions as well).
When I’m shooting my Bullard single-shot, I’ve been known to shoot less than ten rounds during the course of an hour. That illustrates how out-of-sync I am with that crowd that goes through 500 rounds in an hour. I used to enjoy range trips much more than I do now. The only variable behind this is the rise of the black rifle.
When I was in high school, the local hardware store that specialized in firearms typically had one AR-15 on the rack. And most teenagers coming through would pick it up and shoulder it. We would talk about guns around the lunch table at school. I recall the AR-15 would come up. Most of us thought it somewhat cool and none of us would have been upset if someone gave us one. But to spend hard-earned money on one? When such money could be spent on an actual hunting rifle? We all viewed an AR-15 as nothing more than expensive toy – and we were all past the age of wanting toy guns.
Note: it is possible the gloomy weather is getting to me. I’m usually not this cantankerous. I do know the aging process is not helping me.
That thread is locked. That had me confounded as well.
I might buy a black gun, myself. Probably would never shoot it…but the son would like it very much!
Great read, Steve…thank you!!!
James
Like them or not, the popularity and interest in black guns is what is keeping shooting sports alive and welcoming new generations of 2A supporters to the fold.
Admittedly, I love building and shooting them (as well as long range bolt guns), but even on a black gun range day, I always bring a coupe of the ol’ gals out to have some fun with. Never fails to turn heads and draw attention and interest and, in a couple of cases among the 20-somethings that I sometimes shoot with (I’m 53), the black rifle was a gateway drug to further interest in other firearms, including (and especially, given my nudging) old Winchesters.
Almost brought a tear to my eye the day one of my young pals showed up with his new pride and joy – an early 1900’s M1892 in 44WCF. It was a Frankenchester (he knew that – but it fit his budget) but he’s now loading for it and shooting it regularly. He even got his own copy of the Red Book.
I’ll always love my Winchesters, but if black rifles rally the troops to support protection of our Constitutional rights when half the country is in favor of ignoring them, bring on the black rifles.
Just my 2 cents.
Steve
WACA Member. CFM Member. NRA Lifer.
steve004 said
When I’m shooting my Bullard single-shot, I’ve been known to shoot less than ten rounds during the course of an hour.
Hooray for you if you’ve got one of those–always wanted one, but out of my price range. You have Jamieson’s book, I would hope.
But I did, briefly, in the ’70s, own a black rifle–a Colt carbine version. I bought it for ONE reason only–to convert it to full-auto with the parts then legally available & advertised all over the place. Where there was any choice of quality, I bought the most expensive part. Assembled all the parts according to directions, & discovered to my dismay that what I STILL had was a semi-auto! Tinkered with it for several weeks, but no improvement, & was finally so disgusted that I sold it & all my parts at a loss.
Since then I have shot others a couple of times at my range, & can appreciate the high-tech optics they had, but dislike that metallic vibration against my cheek too much to really enjoy shooting them.
supergimp said
Like them or not, the popularity and interest in black guns is what is keeping shooting sports alive and welcoming new generations of 2A supporters to the fold.
Absolutely! And it’s fine with me that the Rifleman (only gun mag I still take, though I once subscribed literally to ALL of them) devotes so much space & attention to them, because I know that if they catered to MY old-fashioned interests, circulation would drop through the floor.
What I’m less sure of is the degree of 2A support by the majority of black gun owners–I mean meaningful support, not big talk, such as a Life (at least!) NRA membership–which I bought the same year I turned 21, though the cost was a considerable hurdle for me. I think it takes something as drastic as this threat of a ban in Virginia to wake many of them up.
I can certainly see the appeal of a “black rifle” to a police department and military but not for sport hunting except maybe coyotes in this area. The local “combat shooting club members who are mostly young men and women use them for obvious reasons and my son loves his HK G36 although it is a restricted firearm in Canada. I can see why as it is definitely fun to shoot at the range. For this “old fart” just give me an old Winchester lever or bolt action gun for any practical use including protection and hunting…. but each to his own.
supergimp said
The popularity and interest in black guns is what is keeping shooting sports alive and welcoming new generations of 2A supporters to the fold.
I would have to agree with you there Steve, at least thats my perception as well. Not forgetting also the emerging conceal carry culture and handguns.
steve004 said
While we’re expressing our biases, I don’t care for some black rifle owners. But there’s a significant group of them that I don’t care for. The “wanna-be soldier” types for example. I want to shout out, “are you serious?!” Instead, I just sit there quietly, while a steady stream of hot brass bounces off me. These guys seem to have a limitless amount of ammunition and they run magazine after magazine through.
I have a range at my parents ranch so its not so much of a problem. However, Ive made a couple trips to the local range recently and have experienced much the same with the “spray and pray” crowd. Ive found that hitting that range early in the morning during the week is the best time to have the place pretty much to myself when I do go. And as you mentioned, some of those guys that are there do take an interest in the old guns when they see them in use.
I own only one AR-15 in 223, built with a Sekins lower and a Rock River upper with 16″ heavy stainless barrel, and a Chip McCormic trigger. My daughter used it to kill her first deer when she was 7– but thankfully has graduated to the 243 since then. But that little 223 is a precision killer for most any game we have here and the kids like to shoot it because they have confidence in it because it shoots great and doesnt have any recoil. They’ve given it the nickname “Sting”. Ive managed working up a great load using 25 grn of IMR 3031 over a 55 grain Nosler bullet and CCI SR primers, capable of 1/2″ MOA or less groups at 100 yards. Not bad for a standard factory barrel. It happens to be one of the most accurate rifles I own. The only thing that comes close in terms of accuracy is my Remington Model 722 in 222, for which my son used to shoot his first deer when he was 7 (which uses the same load as the 223 with the exception of 23 grn of IMR 3031).
However, the kids havnet gone without the introduction to the good old Winchesters. When we go to the ranch with the intent to hunt some pigs after works done and ask them what gun they want to use, my daughter tends to gravitate towards the 1892 in 38-40 and my son to either the 38-40 or my 38-55 carbine.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
Dave K. said
I can certainly see the appeal of a “black rifle” to a police department and military but not for sport hunting except maybe coyotes in this area. The local “combat shooting club members who are mostly young men and women use them for obvious reasons and my son loves his HK G36 although it is a restricted firearm in Canada. I can see why as it is definitely fun to shoot at the range. For this “old fart” just give me an old Winchester lever or bolt action gun for any practical use including protection and hunting…. but each to his own.
I really enjoy an AR in a Prarie dog town. I’ve got a highly accurized one chambered in 204 Ruger. An absolute blast playing the live version of “Whack a mole” ! I also have a couple other uppers, one chambered in 243 WSM, great rifle for deer hunting. As with any firearm, it’s up to the user to ensure proper use and handling. Luckily, I own enough acreage that I don’t have to put up with inconsiderate range morons giving you a shower of hot brass. My take has always been, one shot-one kill. Not machine gun type applications. There are few choices for semi-auto rifles these days, the AR platform has a plethora of custom set ups. One lower is all one needs, you can change calibers with the removal of one pin and swap uppers. Adjustable butt stocks to make them one size fits all. Agreed, they are not collectible to any extent but they sure are functional and reliable. For home protection I keep a model 12 with the barrel shortened to 20″ with alternating rounds of 00 buck shot and slugs. Just the way I do things, others methods will vary for sure. My interest range in firearms is broad, I certainly appreciate guns from the “golden era of firearms making” but don’t be too quick to judge until you have been in the drivers seat of some of the “new stuff”. Just my two cents and opinionated point of view.
Best,
Erin
clarence said
Hooray for you if you’ve got one of those–always wanted one, but out of my price range. You have Jamieson’s book, I would hope.
But I did, briefly, in the ’70s, own a black rifle–a Colt carbine version. I bought it for ONE reason only–to convert it to full-auto with the parts then legally available & advertised all over the place. Where there was any choice of quality, I bought the most expensive part. Assembled all the parts according to directions, & discovered to my dismay that what I STILL had was a semi-auto! Tinkered with it for several weeks, but no improvement, & was finally so disgusted that I sold it & all my parts at a loss.
Since then I have shot others a couple of times at my range, & can appreciate the high-tech optics they had, but dislike that metallic vibration against my cheek too much to really enjoy shooting them.
Yes, I’ve got both of Scott Jamieson’s books on Bullards. I enjoy shooting my large frame repeaters in .40-75 and .45-85. These two (along with the .32/40 single-shot) happen to have mint bores 
Erin Grivicich said
I really enjoy an AR in a Prarie dog town. I’ve got a highly accurized one chambered in 204 Ruger. An absolute blast playing the live version of “Whack a mole” ! I also have a couple other uppers, one chambered in 243 WSM, great rifle for deer hunting. As with any firearm, it’s up to the user to ensure proper use and handling. Luckily, I own enough acreage that I don’t have to put up with inconsiderate range morons giving you a shower of hot brass. My take has always been, one shot-one kill. Not machine gun type applications. There are few choices for semi-auto rifles these days, the AR platform has a plethora of custom set ups. One lower is all one needs, you can change calibers with the removal of one pin and swap uppers. Adjustable butt stocks to make them one size fits all. Agreed, they are not collectible to any extent but they sure are functional and reliable. For home protection I keep a model 12 with the barrel shortened to 20″ with alternating rounds of 00 buck shot and slugs. Just the way I do things, others methods will vary for sure. My interest range in firearms is broad, I certainly appreciate guns from the “golden era of firearms making” but don’t be too quick to judge until you have been in the drivers seat of some of the “new stuff”. Just my two cents and opinionated point of view.
Best,
Erin
I do understand that many of the black rifles can be precision tools. And there is certainly a place for precision tools. It’s interesting to read experiences where those here are shooting 1/2 inch groups. I know some of these arms are capable of such accuracy. I find it ironic given the, “pray and spray” crowd I often encounter at the range. It’s like these guy’s number one goal is to fire as many rounds as possible during a range session. That alone puts me out of sync with them as that is not my goal. I started out liking old rifles. With each passing year, I like them even better.
1892takedown said
supergimp said
The popularity and interest in black guns is what is keeping shooting sports alive and welcoming new generations of 2A supporters to the fold.I would have to agree with you there Steve, at least thats my perception as well. Not forgetting also the emerging conceal carry culture and handguns.
steve004 said
While we’re expressing our biases, I don’t care for some black rifle owners. But there’s a significant group of them that I don’t care for. The “wanna-be soldier” types for example. I want to shout out, “are you serious?!” Instead, I just sit there quietly, while a steady stream of hot brass bounces off me. These guys seem to have a limitless amount of ammunition and they run magazine after magazine through.I have a range at my parents ranch so its not so much of a problem. However, Ive made a couple trips to the local range recently and have experienced much the same with the “spray and pray” crowd. Ive found that hitting that range early in the morning during the week is the best time to have the place pretty much to myself when I do go. And as you mentioned, some of those guys that are there do take an interest in the old guns when they see them in use.
I own only one AR-15 in 223, built with a Sekins lower and a Rock River upper with 16″ heavy stainless barrel, and a Chip McCormic trigger. My daughter used it to kill her first deer when she was 7– but thankfully has graduated to the 243 since then. But that little 223 is a precision killer for most any game we have here and the kids like to shoot it because they have confidence in it because it shoots great and doesnt have any recoil. They’ve given it the nickname “Sting”. Ive managed working up a great load using 25 grn of IMR 3031 over a 55 grain Nosler bullet and CCI SR primers, capable of 1/2″ MOA or less groups at 100 yards. Not bad for a standard factory barrel. It happens to be one of the most accurate rifles I own. The only thing that comes close in terms of accuracy is my Remington Model 722 in 222, for which my son used to shoot his first deer when he was 7 (which uses the same load as the 223 with the exception of 23 grn of IMR 3031).
However, the kids havnet gone without the introduction to the good old Winchesters. When we go to the ranch with the intent to hunt some pigs after works done and ask them what gun they want to use, my daughter tends to gravitate towards the 1892 in 38-40 and my son to either the 38-40 or my 38-55 carbine.
Very very enjoyable read. That picture of your daughter, the pig and the ’92 Winchester is priceless. Brought a smile to my face on this cold, windy, gray day. Very heartening.
supergimp said
Like them or not, the popularity and interest in black guns is what is keeping shooting sports alive and welcoming new generations of 2A supporters to the fold.Admittedly, I love building and shooting them (as well as long range bolt guns), but even on a black gun range day, I always bring a coupe of the ol’ gals out to have some fun with. Never fails to turn heads and draw attention and interest and, in a couple of cases among the 20-somethings that I sometimes shoot with (I’m 53), the black rifle was a gateway drug to further interest in other firearms, including (and especially, given my nudging) old Winchesters.
Almost brought a tear to my eye the day one of my young pals showed up with his new pride and joy – an early 1900’s M1892 in 44WCF. It was a Frankenchester (he knew that – but it fit his budget) but he’s now loading for it and shooting it regularly. He even got his own copy of the Red Book.
I’ll always love my Winchesters, but if black rifles rally the troops to support protection of our Constitutional rights when half the country is in favor of ignoring them, bring on the black rifles.
Just my 2 cents.
Steve
I suppose we’re all strongly influenced by our experiences. Had I had a range experience like that (e.g. the young fellow showing up with the new (old) ’92 Winchester, I’d have been thrilled too. For me, the young people glance at the old stuff I am shooting and give a look like what dumpster did I pull that out of. Complete disinterest.
I’ve got no truck with black rifle people; at least not more than people in general.
That said, you folks on this site are about as close as I like to get any people. I have my own range and it’s 2.5 klicks to the nearest neighbor in one direction, and a hell of a lot further in every other direction. I have a black rifle for many reasons, none of which have anything to do with why I have Winchesters:
1. I was trained on one to the point that it’s like an extension of my body (muscle memory);
2. It’s mil spec, common, and so is the ammo;
3. It’s my Second Amendment reality;
4. It’s my Second Amendment statement;
5. I want anything that anyone tells me they don’t trust me to have.
Like my 1911, it’s my “carry” weapon; a go-to tool that I find functional, efficient, effective, inexpensive to run, and light weight. I’d rather have it in a sh*t sandwich than all my Winchesters. That said, I find it ugly, personally repulsive, and something that would not exist in my preferred world. I try to stay proficient with it, but it’s really not enjoyable and I no longer try hard enough. And I really miss the old school gun shows. I have to make it a point to start attending some of the shows that are focused on wood, and steel, and leather, and lines, and age. Why anyone would want to walk up and down row after row of black plastic is beyond me. But to each his own.
jwm94 said
That thread is locked. That had me confounded as well.I might buy a black gun, myself. Probably would never shoot it…but the son would like it very much!
Great read, Steve…thank you!!!
James
James, shoot one. I’ll bet it will bring a smile to your face that may be hard to wipe off. Several years back I bought one because the Socialist State of Kalifornia was saying I couldn’t. Smiled for a month. A good one is cheaper than most nice collectable Winchesters and so is the ammo.
steve004 said
I suppose we’re all strongly influenced by our experiences. Had I had a range experience like that (e.g. the young fellow showing up with the new (old) ’92 Winchester, I’d have been thrilled too. For me, the young people glance at the old stuff I am shooting and give a look like what dumpster did I pull that out of. Complete disinterest.
Well, I didn’t find them interested in me until I showed some interest in them. That’s when the conversation opened up and a few new Winchester lovers were born.
Admittedly I like building (especially) and shooting black rifles in addition to my Winchesters. I also like mentoring the young guys I come across who are looking for such. Harumphing and writing the kids off for having no interest in something they have no experience with does nothing to encourage them into the community. A typical range day might start with shooting and comparing back rifles with a group of youngsters. By the end of the day at least a couple are begging to shoot that “100-year old cowboy gun” again.
I still like to tease them for their “video game guns” however. All in good fun and common ground. Lord knows they probably aren’t going to get an appreciation for history and tradition in school these days. Someone has to find a way to break through.
Two pennies.
Steve
WACA Member. CFM Member. NRA Lifer.
Chuck said
James, shoot one. I’ll bet it will bring a smile to your face that may be hard to wipe off.
Sure brought a smile to my 80-year old mother’s face. Although you can’t see in this picture because she wouldn’t put it down!
WACA Member. CFM Member. NRA Lifer.
supergimp said
Well, I didn’t find them interested in me until I showed some interest in them. That’s when the conversation opened up and a few new Winchester lovers were born.
Admittedly I like building (especially) and shooting black rifles in addition to my Winchesters. I also like mentoring the young guys I come across who are looking for such. Harumphing and writing the kids off for having no interest in something they have no experience with does nothing to encourage them into the community. A typical range day might start with shooting and comparing back rifles with a group of youngsters. By the end of the day at least a couple are begging to shoot that “100-year old cowboy gun” again.
I still like to tease them for their “video game guns” however. All in good fun and common ground. Lord knows they probably aren’t going to get an appreciation for history and tradition in school these days. Someone has to find a way to break through.
Two pennies.
Steve
supergimp said
Well, I didn’t find them interested in me until I showed some interest in them. That’s when the conversation opened up and a few new Winchester lovers were born.
Admittedly I like building (especially) and shooting black rifles in addition to my Winchesters. I also like mentoring the young guys I come across who are looking for such. Harumphing and writing the kids off for having no interest in something they have no experience with does nothing to encourage them into the community. A typical range day might start with shooting and comparing back rifles with a group of youngsters. By the end of the day at least a couple are begging to shoot that “100-year old cowboy gun” again.
I still like to tease them for their “video game guns” however. All in good fun and common ground. Lord knows they probably aren’t going to get an appreciation for history and tradition in school these days. Someone has to find a way to break through.
Two pennies.
Steve
supergimp said
Well, I didn’t find them interested in me until I showed some interest in them. That’s when the conversation opened up and a few new Winchester lovers were born.
Admittedly I like building (especially) and shooting black rifles in addition to my Winchesters. I also like mentoring the young guys I come across who are looking for such. Harumphing and writing the kids off for having no interest in something they have no experience with does nothing to encourage them into the community. A typical range day might start with shooting and comparing back rifles with a group of youngsters. By the end of the day at least a couple are begging to shoot that “100-year old cowboy gun” again.
I still like to tease them for their “video game guns” however. All in good fun and common ground. Lord knows they probably aren’t going to get an appreciation for history and tradition in school these days. Someone has to find a way to break through.
Two pennies.
Steve
Alright – I’ll be more observant for an opening. I agree with the principle of trying to change things for the better vs. complaining about it.
I’m no leader and I’m no teacher, but for those of you who are, I would think that trick shooting/exhibitions might appeal to the younger generation. Take the best IPSC person and put them up against a person like Bob Munden and you might find a new curiosity about single actions. Likewise, find the best black rifle guy/gal and put them up against a lever guy/gal that knows how to shoot. Sure, the reloads, number of rounds, and distance can’t compete, but if the first five bad guys are dead before the modern gun gets off a shot, well, just how many bad guys are out there, and how far away are they in your average fight?
Huck Riley said
I’m no leader and I’m no teacher, but for those of you who are, I would think that trick shooting/exhibitions might appeal to the younger generation. Take the best IPSC person and put them up against a person like Bob Munden and you might find a new curiosity about single actions. Likewise, find the best black rifle guy/gal and put them up against a lever guy/gal that knows how to shoot. Sure, the reloads, number of rounds, and distance can’t compete, but if the first five bad guys are dead before the modern gun gets off a shot, well, just how many bad guys are out there, and how far away are they in your average fight?
And I didn’t mean to come off as critical. I can be as crotchety as the next old guy. But I do try and here in CA we need all the guys and gals on our side that we can get. Sometimes requires patience…believe me.
Steve
WACA Member. CFM Member. NRA Lifer.
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