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WallyB., Bert H., All others;
Wally, Bert, at the cost of being redundant, this is a perfect example of why I keep harping on doing the hard work it takes to become “Your Own Expert”. I think that perhaps a good number of these dealers that buy, hold, sell, auction, or trade these firearms, firearms that have been made into something they never were, either know, suspect, or see an “Opportunity” to be taken advantage of. When it comes to collecting Winchesters, old S&W’s, Rembrants, or whatever it’s “Caviate Emptor” (Buyer Beware!!!). Believe me it’s even worse when it comes to “Historical” Colt SAA’s or Percussion Colts. There are however many honest Dealers out there. We help keep them that way by knowing as much or perhaps more about the product they’re selling than they do. I, myself was taken twice over the years, both times when I became greedy. One was a Colt 1862 Police. The other was a New Model #3 Smith & Wesson. I saw what I wanted to see, not what was actually there. I listened to the “expert” advice of the person selling the item. Lesson learned. Granted, sometimes it costs in time, money and labor to become knowledgeable, but you’ll sleep better if you are.
Apache, Larry N.
Well said, but these people doing this should be identified no matter what. I almost got stung on a $10,000 M1892 in mint condition, by a very reputable dealer who, I am quite sure, knew it had been re bbld. and refinished.
No one seems to want to ID these people, probably for fear of getting sued. Maybe the fakers should be the ones sued.
Thanks, Big Larry
Back when Roger’s was in business, I spotted several big name dealers with his barrels on guns and one dealer was so clueless he was selling the old barrels on the end of his table.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
twobit said
Disclaimer: This post in no way implies any wrong doing by Leroy Merz or his staff.
I was looking for rifles on Guns International today to add into my survey of the Model 1892. There was quite a batch of rifles listed as for sale by Leroy Merz as is the norm so I started going through them to see which might indeed be new listings. A rifle with the serial number 919904 was listed on Leroy’s site. I entered the SN into my spreadsheet and it was already there. BUT WAIT!! The configuration I had was for a checkered stock pistol grip OB sporting rifle. The Merz listing had the gun as an eastern carbine configuration with a rifle butt stock. Which would be a pretty interesting little gun. In my spreadsheet of data I always keep a note where each rifle was located. The 919904 I had entered had just sold at Morphy’s Auction in May as lot # 337. I also keep photo files of as many rifles as possible. That file is currently in excess of 25 thousand photos covering more than 3500 rifles. So I looked at the photo files I had for the Morphy’s rifle and there is NO doubt it is the same serial number. Hmmmm???
At this point I called Leroy’s shop and talked with one of his employees who pulled up there listing and I sent him the link to the Morphy listing. He concurred that when comparing common photos of the same portion of the receiver it is absolutely the same receiver. The orientation of the screws are identical and there is the same scratch on the right side and same wear patterns on he left. But he was confused in that Merz had sold the rifle on Feb 6 of this year. Somehow the “sold rifle” listing on GI had come back up and that is how I noticed the duplication in the serial number. It is absolutely clear that the buyer of the gun from Merz in Feb had then reconfigured and upgraded the rifle and then put it up for auction on the Morphy site in May. The green background photos are from Leroy’s listing and the white background shots are from Morphy.
So what happened to the gun. All the wood on the Morphy sold gun is not original. The lever was changed. The caliber was changed from 25-20 to 32 WCF. The entire barrel and magazine was switched out. The barrel address location is NOT correct for the SN range. ( would love to know if the barrel was Proof stamped and where the caliber stamp is located.) The rear sight elevator is not correct. And I just love this sentence in the description in the Morphy catalog. Manufactured in 1923. This rifle falls outside the factory research range. Is that code for “Your about to bent over the wood pile???”
Michael
Just surfing the internet and guess what I found for sale. Sure looks like the same gun to me. Buyer beware!!!
Wow! Yes the rifle listed in Winchester Grove is absolutely the same gun. There is no hiding the scratch on the right side of the receiver. So, ASSUMING that Grove bought the gun at auction for $5000 what does he do now that we know it is NOT original. Will he sell it for $1500 and eat the loss? A wonderful example of just because these guys are “dealers” they are not beyond making errors in what they buy and then mark up for resale.
I know a pretty big dealer who told me that they will put a bid in on EVERY Winchester in an auction. Then sell what they go home with. Not real selective at all. BUT, they have a business to run and in their defense they are not interested in holding the hand of every potential buyer and that person’s interest in a gun. It is after all, up to us to be responsible for ourselves.
Always here to help.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
As long as we stick to facts that are a matter of historical record and avoid conjecture, assumptions, thinly veiled accusations, and so forth, we will be safe. For example, before and after photos, seller’s user ID’s, dates sold, bought and sold prices, and so forth are all a matter of record. Who might have known what, is not a matter of record and should be avoided.
I am very sorry to see that the Groves have had the misfortune of purchasing this rifle being discussed. I do hope he is able to get back in touch with the seller and return the rifle for a full refund. I would even more like to see the police investigate the seller for possible fraud. No accusations, just an investigation to clear the seller if you will (taking a positive spin on it 🙂 ).
twobit said
Wow! Yes the rifle listed in Winchester Grove is absolutely the same gun. There is no hiding the scratch on the right side of the receiver. So, ASSUMING that Grove bought the gun at auction for $5000 what does he do now that we know it is NOT original. Will he sell it for $1500 and eat the loss? A wonderful example of just because these guys are “dealers” they are not beyond making errors in what they buy and then mark up for resale.
I know now a pretty big dealer who told me that they will put a bid in on EVERY Winchester in an auction. Then sell what they go home with. Not real selective at all. BUT, they have a business to run and in their defense they are not interested in holding the hand of every potential buyer and that person’s interest in a gun. It is after all, up to us to be responsible for ourselves.
Always here to help.
Michael
Maybe it’s my monitor, but it looks like the caliber designation says 30 WCF
January 26, 2011
Offline
The picture with the caliber marking, (and the one above it) are not the same rifle. Obviously from another ’94 he must have. Different rear sight, elevator, and dovetail slot cut closer to the receiver, for a short rifle.
Good eye, Tionesta.
~Gary~
In this case the first example looked good , but maybe not original either?. But even so why go to all the effort (including lower tang bending) of faking it down again ? , unless using the wood to fake up a new Frankenstein gun with even more potential for profit ??
Staying quiet to protect the guilty doesnt seem like too great an idea to me , is it like not ratting on the Mafia out of underworld respect and fear ?
Phil
25-20 said
In this case the first example looked good , but maybe not original either?. But even so why go to all the effort (including lower tang bending) of faking it down again ? , unless using the wood to fake up a new Frankenstein gun with even more potential for profit ??
Staying quiet to protect the guilty doesnt seem like too great an idea to me , is it like not ratting on the Mafia out of underworld respect and fear ?
Phil
AMEN Phil !!!!!! Big Larry
Big Larry;
You write that you almost were “Ripped Off” (stung) by a “Very Reputable” Dealer. The fact that this clown had this item on his table or whatever, tells me in actuality he wasn’t “Very Reputable” at all, now was he. Even if he didn’t initally know the rifle was a “Restored Item”, I’d bet by the time it was up for sale by him/her, it was known not to be original. You were lucky or very knowledgeable, or both. Good for you. Bad for the Dealer. To all out there in Winchester La La Dream Land please take note. When it comes to buying “Big Bucks” or even “little bucks” items, you the Buyer shouldn’t assume anything about the reputation of the person you’re buying from, be it “Spotless or Stained Black”. Human nature and Business being what it is today, when it comes to $$$$ you better know yourself just what you’re purchasing, and not what that “Reputable Dealer” is telling you you’re buying. If you choose not to, welllll now, I’ve got this great big bridge over the Sonoran Desert to sell you. Cheap!!! After all you know me, and can trust me!! Can’t you? HA,HA,HA,HA!!
Apache, Larry N.
Is that a draw bridge or a covered bridge? I’m a sucker for the covered ones–if it hasn’t been rebuilt.
Here is the right side photos lightened up a bit.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
apache said
Big Larry;
You write that you almost were “Ripped Off” (stung) by a “Very Reputable” Dealer. The fact that this clown had this item on his table or whatever, tells me in actuality he wasn’t “Very Reputable” at all, now was he. Even if he didn’t initally know the rifle was a “Restored Item”, I’d bet by the time it was up for sale by him/her, it was known not to be original. You were lucky or very knowledgeable, or both. Good for you. Bad for the Dealer. To all out there in Winchester La La Dream Land please take note. When it comes to buying “Big Bucks” or even “little bucks” items, you the Buyer shouldn’t assume anything about the reputation of the person you’re buying from, be it “Spotless or Stained Black”. Human nature and Business being what it is today, when it comes to $$$$ you better know yourself just what you’re purchasing, and not what that “Reputable Dealer” is telling you you’re buying. If you choose not to, welllll now, I’ve got this great big bridge over the Sonoran Desert to sell you. Cheap!!! After all you know me, and can trust me!! Can’t you? HA,HA,HA,HA!!
Apache, Larry N.
I am seeing another instance where this same guy has had another suspicious gun sold, or for sale. He is never going to get another chance at me, or my collector friends. Big Larry
I just noticed that the Model 1892 in question is no longer listed on the Grove’s website. I expect they pulled it after finding out it had been altered. As an aside, I frequently slip over to their website to admire the many gorgeous Winchesters listed there.
win38-55 said
I just noticed that the Model 1892 in question is no longer listed on the Grove’s website. I expect they pulled it after finding out it had been altered. As an aside, I frequently slip over to their website to admire the many gorgeous Winchesters listed there.
Kirk,
I finally got around to sending Don an email yesterday with a link to this thread and informing him of what I had discovered. I had not heard back from him as of this morning.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
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