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Disclaimer: This post in no way implies any wrong doing by Leroy Merz or his staff.
I was looking for rifles on Guns International today to add into my survey of the Model 1892. There was quite a batch of rifles listed as for sale by Leroy Merz as is the norm so I started going through them to see which might indeed be new listings. A rifle with the serial number 919904 was listed on Leroy’s site. I entered the SN into my spreadsheet and it was already there. BUT WAIT!! The configuration I had was for a checkered stock pistol grip OB sporting rifle. The Merz listing had the gun as an eastern carbine configuration with a rifle butt stock. Which would be a pretty interesting little gun. In my spreadsheet of data I always keep a note where each rifle was located. The 919904 I had entered had just sold at Morphy’s Auction in May as lot # 337. I also keep photo files of as many rifles as possible. That file is currently in excess of 25 thousand photos covering more than 3500 rifles. So I looked at the photo files I had for the Morphy’s rifle and there is NO doubt it is the same serial number. Hmmmm???
At this point I called Leroy’s shop and talked with one of his employees who pulled up there listing and I sent him the link to the Morphy listing. He concurred that when comparing common photos of the same portion of the receiver it is absolutely the same receiver. The orientation of the screws are identical and there is the same scratch on the right side and same wear patterns on he left. But he was confused in that Merz had sold the rifle on Feb 6 of this year. Somehow the “sold rifle” listing on GI had come back up and that is how I noticed the duplication in the serial number. It is absolutely clear that the buyer of the gun from Merz in Feb had then reconfigured and upgraded the rifle and then put it up for auction on the Morphy site in May. The green background photos are from Leroy’s listing and the white background shots are from Morphy.
So what happened to the gun. All the wood on the Morphy sold gun is not original. The lever was changed. The caliber was changed from 25-20 to 32 WCF. The entire barrel and magazine was switched out. The barrel address location is NOT correct for the SN range. ( would love to know if the barrel was Proof stamped and where the caliber stamp is located.) The rear sight elevator is not correct. And I just love this sentence in the description in the Morphy catalog. Manufactured in 1923. This rifle falls outside the factory research range. Is that code for “Your about to bent over the wood pile???”
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Michael,
Great eye. The fakers must be getting good at bending lower tangs. What did it sell for?
Post your email and I will send more ’92’s for your study.
Walter Blake
Walter,
It sold for $5500!! Here is the catalog link. I meant to include it earlier.
morphyauctions.hibid.com/lot/19487653/–special-order-winchester-model-1892-rifle-?pos=19487652&cat=0&sort=1&hide=0&qs=0&view=0&aView=0&q=337&selCat=0
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Michael,
What a bargain!
Send your email so I can send more ’92’s for your study.
Walter Blake
You wouldn’t believe how much out there is fraudulent. Do your research first, folks, then fork over the cash.
This is great stuff and many thanks for sharing with the community. It’s research and publication like this that helps further our education (and risk awareness).
Just to add to this same type of shenanigans, while I was surveying Model 71s at the Cody show this past weekend, I found serial number 1370 in an entirely different configuration than it was when I first found it back in 2012.
As viewed in July 2012, it was a standard Rifle, plain stocks, 24-inch barrel.
As viewed in July 2015, it is now a Deluxe Carbine, checkered stocks, 20-inch barrel.
Another case of illicit behavior by a Winchester dealer.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert,
The seller of that 71 may have been duped when he bought it. It would take a dealer with a large set to take a faked Winchester to the Cody show with all the research going on. Did you talk to him?
Walter Blake
wallyb said
Bert,
The seller of that 71 may have been duped when he bought it. It would take a dealer with a large set to take a faked Winchester to the Cody show with all the research going on. Did you talk to him?
Walter Blake
Walter,
Correction, It was not the same dealer that had it at the show back in 2012. Many (most) of the Winchester dealers across the country are completely unaware of the surveys that I have in progress. Only those few people who follow this forum are aware of my work.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
wallyb said
Bert,
The seller of that 71 may have been duped when he bought it. It would take a dealer with a large set to take a faked Winchester to the Cody show with all the research going on. Did you talk to him?
Walter Blake
Walter,
Correction, It was Not the same dealer that had it at the show back in 2012, and No, I did not talk to or confront him. Many (most) of the Winchester dealers across the country are completely unaware of the surveys that I have in progress. Only those few people who follow this forum are aware of my work.
Bert
Interesting situation. Do you sit back and let the faked gun continue to move on to unsuspecting buyers, or say something to alert potential victims of fakery? What is ones obligation to the collecting fraternity? I understand exposing the fakery and telling other collectors about it can cause you a lot of grief and hard feelings. Buyer beware, or expose the fakers?
Personally I feel the fakers should be called out in public. The collecting community(and I like to think of it as a community) has an obligation to police their own ranks in my opinion. I also collect WW2 German K98k’s and humping of rifles into more valuable specimens has reached epidemic proportions. One of the collector forums I belong to has a long accepted practice of posting “Turd Alerts” when a doctored up rifle is posted in an online auction. The link is posted for the expert forum members to pick apart and is a service to the newer collectors who may be taken in and burned on a purchase. Members are careful not to post all of the reasons a faked rifle is incorrect as the fakers do not need a tutorial in fakery.
I think guys like Bert and several others who record serial numbers and configurations do a great service to those of us who collect guns as well as the honest dealers out there. Personally I wouldn’t mind seeing a “Turd Alert” forum on the WCA forum but I am unaware of any legal issues which could arise from having such a thing. What are your thoughts on the matter?
I’m not a lawyer but I could imagine in these times if you called someones Turd a Turd and he figured he lost money on the sale because of what you said he might sue just to prove a point.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
I’m not a lawyer but I could imagine in these times if you called someones Turd a Turd and he figured he lost money on the sale because of what you said he might sue just to prove a point.
Bob
Bob,
I am sure you are 100% correct on that point.
Leroy knows who he sold the original rifle to. I wonder what he response/input would be???
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Having been involved in more than one instance where I exposed a faked Winchester, I have chosen to leave names out of it. If I only mention the faked gun by Model and serial number, I am not pointing fingers at a specific person, or slandering anyone specifically. If a dishonest dealer wants to try and sue me for exposing an altered/faked gun, he/she is more than welcome to try it, but I can guarantee you I will make their life a very miserable place to be.
I do feel that something should be said about the faked guns, but carefully in an open forum like we are doing here. Directly confronting a dishonest seller is very seldom ever a good idea. However, allowing them to discover through word of mouth or on the internet that their dirty deeds are being uncovered and discussed is a good thing. Hopefully it will put a big damper on their illicit activities… but I will not hold my breath on it happening anytime soon.
In regards to creating a separate forum, I do not believe that is necessary, nor do I want to create a potentially negative forum. We seem to being doing just fine in our current format.
Hopefully enough collectors read the WACA forums and are alerted to the skullduggery that is being committed by a small number of dealers out there.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Michael,
Thats why I like 73’s, they letter!
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
sb said
What did Leroy do with this altered gun?
SB
Go back to the top and read my initial post again. Leroy sold the gun that was then altered.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
I missed the part about the sold listing coming back up. I thought he had the rifle for a second time.
Very nice work, Twobit. When I read what kind of records you are keeping in your survey, I am embarrassed at my records for the Model 53. You have inspired me to raise the bar for my own Model 53 records, effective immediately.
Suggestion: Having read the comments about having a separate forum for fakes and the pros and cons, I suggest an alternative … someone start a survey of altered guns, complete with photos and a record of sellers. No accusations, no name-calling, only facts that are a matter of historical record. The person in charge of this survey may want to have two categories, i) proven altered guns and ii) suspected altered guns, complete with photos of the suspected alterations. For this second category, I imagine there might be a range of suspicion, so some sort of threshold could be set to filter out those guns that might be altered, but might not be.
One thing that might ease the load of the person who takes responsibility for this survey is if each of us who already manage surveys (I look after the Model 53) could keep our own sub-survey of suspects for the given Model and then supply the info to the person who is looking after the master altered gun survey.
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