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Flatband carbine w/PG on GB
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July 25, 2014 - 12:53 pm
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This is not my area of expertise – so what say the experts? Legit?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=431263877

Greg

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July 25, 2014 - 1:31 pm
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Greg,

I honestly do not know. It would take a hands on examination. The butt stock and butt plate are identical to the standard Model 64 Rifle. The receiver is not drilled & tapped for a peep sight, so it appears to be a Model 94 receiver versus a Model 64 receiver.

Bert

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July 26, 2014 - 5:13 am
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Looks like a bit of wood filler behind the top tang to fill the gap, if so, not good. Such a rifle can be easily made by simply adding Model 64 parts to a 94 receiver. I have one like that too. I am sure mine was made up by an employee or gunsmith. But who knows. Impossible to prove one way or the other.

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July 26, 2014 - 9:07 am
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I’ll give it a go. The thing that first caught my eye, beside the stock, was the finger leaver. All of the model 1894/94 finger levers I’ve seen on pistol griped rifles seem to have a gentler bend on the lower band of the finger loop. The Model 64 tends to have what almost looks like a kink instead. It’s probably made necessary by the more critical shape of the pistol grip. If photo #9 was in B&W I would think it was taken out of Renneberg’s’ book on page 221.
That metal style buttplate was a standard one on the 64 but not the 94. The only photo in his book that I find with those three features on a 94 is page 66 and that rifle is described as a clandestinely built rifle put together by employees of the plant.
The style hammer is out of the serial range by about 31,000 when Renneberg states that “production and installation ceased rather abruptly with the introduction of the post war “flat-band” model at serials around 1,350,000. In 1945, the year of the hammer change, there were only 8,870 (Red Book) Model 94 produced. The following year, when # 1,381,654 was built there were 58,934 (Red Book) manufactured. The question becomes, what is abrupt?
My conclusion is it is either a 94 that had a 64 stock and leaver put on aftermarket or because of the addition of the hammer it was another employee put together as on page 66 of B. R.’s book.
Gene
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July 26, 2014 - 9:28 am
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The rear sight is way out of it’s production era. As for the hammer, I have # 1382800 in 25-35 (1946), that is pretty close to this one. It also has the second style hammer. It also has no strain screw and the 3" spacing for the rear sight. It is a 22H with 3C elevator. Big Larry

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July 26, 2014 - 12:39 pm
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In regards to the hammer type, the Type 2 checkered hammer was predominant through serial number 1411300. I have documented this in my research survey. It was very early in the year 1947 (well into the Flat-band production) that the Type 3 serrated hammer replaced the Type 2 hammer.

Bert

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July 26, 2014 - 1:32 pm
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It looks like my interpretation of abrupt and B. R.’s hold two different meanings. My conclusion would therefore be, an aftermarket add-on of the stock and leaver along with Big Larry’s observations on the sight.
Gene
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July 26, 2014 - 3:56 pm
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Bert H. said
In regards to the hammer type, the Type 2 checkered hammer was predominant through serial number 1411300. I have documented this in my research survey. It was very early in the year 1947 (well into the Flat-band production) that the Type 3 serrated hammer replaced the Type 2 hammer.

Bert

Hi Bert, I have M94 flatband carbine # 1416238X from 1947 and it has the serrated hammer. No, the X is not a hidden number. This is a duplicate carbine in the dreaded 32 WS caliber. Thanks, Big Larry

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July 26, 2014 - 10:04 pm
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Larry,

I have it my survey, and it was a duplicate serial number. The earliest serial number I have confirmed with a Type 3 serrated hammer is 1415272. The highest serial number with a Type 2 hammer is 1420667. The change to the Type 3 hammer was rather abrupt, but it took place in the 1415200 – 1420700 serial number range.

After perusing through my Model 94 research survey, I just discovered a very interesting fact… after WW II, pistol gripped Model 94 Carbines are ultra rare! Between serial numbers 1352067 – 2600011, I have recorded 5,658 serial numbers, and just five of them have a pistol grip stock (including the one that started this topic). Of the five, four of them have a Model 64 butt stock, butt plate, and lever on them!! It just may be that the Model 94 Carbine in question is perfectly legitimate.

Bert

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July 27, 2014 - 4:28 am
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Like all Winchester’s with no letters, a gun with all original era Winchester parts and finishes, is impossible to determine how and when it came to be. Could be factory could be gunsmith.

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July 27, 2014 - 9:06 am
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Bert,
I’m going to have to stand by my conclusion of an add -on. I my opinion there is just too much to defend. Beside the stock issue there is the filler in photo #2 as CJS57 pointed out. The sight as Big Larry pointed out. Then there is screw damage in the areas where they would have to be worked to change out the stock and lever (Tang and link screws) on that high condition gun. Then there is the reference material available. Even the Red Book pictures that stock/lever combination on the 64. I looked through my books and on line and everything points to 64. If we can’t educate ourselves with reference books put out through the research of the “experts” and looking at thousands of Winchesters at hundreds of shows then what are we to do? As CJS57 stated no letter no real conclusion.
Caveat Emptor Wink
Gene 😕

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July 27, 2014 - 10:18 am
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I agree with Gene. Although it could be legit, its a gun you will always have to make excuses for, at least to any knowledgeable collector. At first glance, its a 94/64 hybrid and always will be considered such.

                                                                               ~Gary~

                                                                                                                                                                              94-SRR.jpg

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July 31, 2014 - 10:04 am
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A very insightful way to determine originality would be to inspect the joint between the receiver and the lower tang. A factory gun will always be near perfect while a made up gun will almost never quite fit correctly. I notice that the seller did NOT picture this area. Just sayin……
This also can be of help in determining the originality of a set trigger assembly.
Of course one would think that on any gun that had been refinished this error would be corrected.

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