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I wish to put a few rounds through a number of my rifles. All lever guns and all in fine safe firing condition, some in exceptional condition. Although I am an experienced reloader I think it would make a lot of sense to just purchase some rounds from either Buffalo Arms or Ten X. 44-40, 38-55 and 38-40 are the three cartridges in question. Should I shoot black powder cartridges and put up with the laborious cleaning (which I must be honest really isnt an issue), Use Pyrodex or use a smokeless powder cartridge? Any thoughts or experiences would be very welcome.
I shoot smokeless in all of mine regardless of age.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
1873man said
I shoot smokeless in all of mine regardless of age.Bob
As do I. There are a fair number of smokeless powders that can perfectly match black powder pressures and velocities.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Could a Sticky be created that would list the powders that "perfectly match black powder pressures and velocities"? Might be a good fit in the "Shooting and Hunting" area of this forum.
Maybe also share loads for various Winchester calibers?
With the powder shortage at present (over the past several years) some of us are running low on our preferred powders. Working up new loads eats quite a bit of powder.
It seems many us sift through the internet attempting to find appropriate powders and safe loads for our old rifles.
Im pleasantly surprised to see Knowledgeable collectors "admitting" they use smokeless. In Most sites armchair experts are quick to jump in and scream No dont do it you could die from one shot.(because they heard it)
I have been using smokeless in all antiques (mostly Winchester levers) for 40 years and I’m still here. I have also used primarily jacketed bullets, with the surprising conclusion that in mild sensible loads, my barrels show no wear from this. I only buy guns with good bores now, but the few dark bores I have used get continuously better with use shooting jacketed and with proper bore cleaners. Common sense is key, and another argument against smokeless is the possibility of a double charge in the large volume cases, so careful reloading is a must
Best load I have used in my M1892’s is a 18 grain load of H110 with a 200 gr. lead bullet. The steel on the earlier rifles is probably strong enough to handle this mild load, but I do not shoot any of my rifles too early to have proof marks just to be safe. My early guns are more collectable than the later ones and I don’t shoot them anyway. Another thing, if you own a 44-40 revolver, be very, very, careful. Big Larry
Yeah, I also shoot smokeless (H110 or VihtaVuori N110) with 1892´s, but with "Old ones" I meant 73´s or 76`s…Is it WISE to load these with ANY smokeless, and if, is the 5744 way to go then?
For the Model 1876 cartridges, IMR 4198 is a great powder. For the Model 1885 Single Shot Rifle high-wall cartridges (e.g. 40-70, 40-90, 45-70, etc.) I start with a 40% ratio load (e.g. 90-grains of FF black powder = 36-grains IMR 4198), and then work up slowly.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
That’s a great idea from "FromTheWoods" to have some loading data here on the site. I realize the entries would have to be scrutinized or monitored perhaps along with an obligatory disclaimer but it would be great to have a few proven tested safe loads here. I am going to start loading some 38 40 rounds for my 73 and a 92. Unique and Herco seem to pop up in a few places as a good powder with 180 gn FN cast bullet. I looked up my ever faithful Pet Loads from Ken Waters and he rates the rifles into 2 groups, weaker action (73) & strong actions (92) so I must be honest I am a tiny bit nervous about my beautiful 73. He has loads using the 2 mentioned powders above plus 2400, 4227 & SR-4759. These are all listed for jacketed bullets though! I guess there’s another question right there…jacketed or cast bullets?
There are a few manufacturers out there making 180 FN bullets with the crimping groove. Any suggestions for a nice mild 38 40 load for both my 73 and 92 would be welcome.
Some cartridges seem easier to get accuracy out of than others. I have had a challenge with 38-55 and 44-40 especially , finding it hard to even duplicate the excellent accuracy of the mild Winchester factory Jacketed bullet offerings (white box factory that used to be abundant and cheap at gun shows)
38-40 has been very easy and satisfying , having great results with 8 gr Unique in 4 92’s and a Uberti 73. with a variety of approx 180 to 200 gr cast and jacketed bullets , 6 gr. , in a Uberti Colt SA copy. Unique is hard to best in 38-40 with many other loads tried , but I have no Original 38 WCF Win 73 loading experience.
In 218, 32-20, 44-40 Im lately having better luck with 4227 lately , Its fun to experiment
I have also found 218 Bee 25-20, 32-20, 32-40 easy to get satisfying accuracy out of
I also like 4198 in the large capacity 1876 and 1886 cases , but generally use the shorter stick H4198 for easier metering .5744 is also good for the large cases, I havent tried it in any 92 cartridges,
4198 is also a good powder for some smaller 92 cartridges like 218 , 25-20 and 32-20, and all the mod 94 cals
If I could only have one good for everything choice it would be H4198
Is there any consensus on a commercially available safe cartridge for antique 73 & 92 in 44-40 & 38, and also a 76 in 45-75 ? ( target )
Blueliner said
Is there any consensus on a commercially available safe cartridge for antique 73 & 92 in 44-40 & 38, and also a 76 in 45-75 ? ( target )
Bill,
The current production Winchester "Cowboy Action" ammo is perfectly safe to shoot in either the Model 1873 or 1892. I do not believe that the 45-75 is commercially loaded by anyone. Hornady ans several other manufacturers also make the Cowboy ammo.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert,
I’ve had good luck with Winchester and some others for the 92, but somewhat concerned for the 73. 38 same thing.
The 45-75 I found was made by Captech-Jamison@ $2.74/rd and TenX @ $4.24/rd. Both are 350 gr. Is that a safe grain for the ‘ole 76 ?
Bill
Bill,
I have shot the Winchester 44-40 Cowboy loads in several different Model 1873 rifles with no issues. Winchester very specifically makes it intentionally low-powered so that it is safe in the old original Colt Single-Action revolvers and Model 1873 lever-actions.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bill,
The modern day Winchester and Remington smokeless ammunition is loaded so that it mimics the original black powder ballistics. If you want some less powerful / more "cowboy" type of ammunition you might try Black Hills ammo. If I recall (without checking any data) the Winchester and Remington ammo is in the range of 1200 fps muzzle velocity while the Black Hills is closer to 800 fps. I use Winchester/Remington to hunt with.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
This thread probably belongs in the Shooting and Hunting section ? but forgot to mention that this site is pretty good on load data for old calibers
http://www.reloadersnest.com/unverified_detail.asp?CaliberID=86&ID=5430
or for the rifle list
http://www.reloadersnest.com/rifle.asp
There is data out there if you google it, although on shooting forums posters are a little ‘gunshy’ on recommending or disclosing the exact loads for use in antique guns
many older manuals are also good
as most already know Kirk (Win38-55) , a prominent poster in the Shooting and Hunting section is probably the best source, has written articles on antique Winchesters , and has many ‘range reports’ with pics of the targets shot with load data
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