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Hi guys , could I get approx age of a Winchester 26 in. round replacement barrel Its standard weight , not lightweight, measuring .700 at the muzzle
stamped
-MODEL 94-Winchester-NICKEL STEEL-32W.S.-
The Winchester name is slanted
spanning 3 3/4 inches
also could it be a factory replacement with 2 proofs top of barrel The one further from receiver is a (P) closer to the receiver is the standard PW Winchester proof. the gun itself is pre proofmark
Thanks
Phil
Hello,
The "Oval P" proof stamp signifies an non factory replacement barrel. I believe that the barrel marking you describe came into use during 1925. Maybe late 1924.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Phil
Michael is right on about the barrel marking. The earliest marking with a dash before and after the caliber that I have recorded is 977169 from March of 1925. Don’t quote me on this but, a barrel this late may have the year stamped on it underneath the forearm.
Paul
There should be a 2-digit year number stamped on the bottom of the barrel right next to the threaded shank. It should be dated somewhere in the 24 – 31 range. Winchester switched from Nickel Steel to Proof Steel in the first half of the year 1932. The stylized "WINCHESTER" marking was introduced co-incident with the Model 55 in June of 1924.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks Bert, 94shorties and Michael , I also now see it identified as "Type 6" in Bob’s Model 94 book
Phil
When I see the Oval P proof alone on the barrel, I believe that is a mail order barrel sent out to a gunsmith to install outside of the factory.
When I see the Oval P proof and the PW proof both on the barrel, I believe that is a replacement barrel that Winchester installed at the factory.
But……Nothing is ever for sure with Winchester.
CJS57 said
When I see the Oval P proof alone on the barrel, I believe that is a mail order barrel sent out to a gunsmith to install outside of the factory.
When I see the Oval P proof and the PW proof both on the barrel, I believe that is a replacement barrel that Winchester installed at the factory.
But……Nothing is ever for sure with Winchester.
I do not believe that to be the case due to the fact that I have found way too many barrels with both proof marks that do not have an "R&R" entry in the ledger records.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
CJS57 said
When I see the Oval P proof alone on the barrel, I believe that is a mail order barrel sent out to a gunsmith to install outside of the factory.
When I see the Oval P proof and the PW proof both on the barrel, I believe that is a replacement barrel that Winchester installed at the factory.
But……Nothing is ever for sure with Winchester.
I agree. Winchester only applied the WP proof on completed guns.
Gobbler
Bert, What Ledgers are you referring to and what general years do they cover? I thought the records were missing past 1907, right about when proof marks were starting?
Also, How do you explain some barrels with the P oval only and some with both? Sometimes they did it one way and sometimes the other randomly?
Just trying to get a better handle on this. For example I own a Winchester 92 that was part of the 1930’s Paramont Movie Contract as researched by Leroy Mertz. These were 100 or so SRC’s that were rebarreled at Winchester with 20" Octagon barrels. That variation always has both oval and PW proofs on the 5 examples I have observed.
Gobbler, Yes I agree. Winchester only applied the PW proof to completed guns, but…… that includes rebarreled completed guns.
The use of the traditional ledger records ended in the 1907 – 1911 time frame (depending on the specific model) for entering newly built guns. However, "R&R" entries continued to be recorded in them well into the 1920s. I have seen "R&R" entries dated as late as 1923.
I personally do not believe that Winchester used "Mail Order" (P) marked barrels when a gun was sent back to the factory for a new barrel. Instead, the new barrel would have just been marked with the standard "WP" proof mark.
Over the years, I have only seen a handful of barrels that were marked with just the (P) only, and conversely, I have encountered several dozen with both the (P) and "WP" proof marks on them. Based on my personal observations of those guns, the earlier (older) guns typically will have the (P) only marking on them, and the later (newer) production guns will have both, but not always. In almost all cases, and regardless of how they were marked, it was my gut instinct that the gun had been rebarreled outside of the factory.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
CJS57 said
Gobbler, Yes I agree. Winchester only applied the PW proof to completed guns, but…… that includes rebarreled completed guns.
Yes. Lorenzo Santima, a manager for Winchester, stated that pre proofed barrels were installed at the factory and then WP stamped when completed.
Gobbler
So to me the only questions remaining are:
1)Did Winchester send out replacement barrels to gunsmiths that were marked with the PW stamp alone, no oval P at all?
2) Did Winchester send out replacement barrels to gunsmiths that had Both the Oval P and the PW on them?
CJS57 said
So to me the only questions remaining are:1)Did Winchester send out replacement barrels to gunsmiths that were marked with the PW stamp alone, no oval P at all?
2) Did Winchester send out replacement barrels to gunsmiths that had Both the Oval P and the PW on them?
No, to question #1.
Yes, to question #2.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
CJS57 said
So to me the only questions remaining are:1)Did Winchester send out replacement barrels to gunsmiths that were marked with the PW stamp alone, no oval P at all?
2) Did Winchester send out replacement barrels to gunsmiths that had Both the Oval P and the PW on them?
No, to question #1.
Yes, to question #2.
Bert
Hmmmmm. Based on observations of the .22 rimfire rifles my experience has been that the oval P barrels were mail order and the oval WP was only applied after proof firing the complete rifle by Winchester. I have some notes and documentation to that effect but it is certainly not definitive. Back in the days when it was easy to box up your rifle and send it back to Winchester through the mail it is certainly possible that Winchester replaced more barrels than just those indicated in the R&R Ledger entries.
Also, FWIW, I have a number of new in the wrap barrels from Winchester for various rifles and all have only the oval P marking. In fact, I can’t recall ever seeing a NEW dual marked barrel on the loose (unless removed from a rifle) whereas there are a number of replacement barrels with only the oval P off of rifles. Of course that doesn’t prove anything, it is just another piece of the puzzle. Does anyone have a dual marked new in the wrap barrel?
We may never know the exact process but at this point I personally believe that the oval WP was applied on a Winchester installed barrel.
It would be interesting to do some further research and see if there is a pattern to the usage of a single oval P and the combination of both.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
"We may never know the exact process but at this point I personally believe that the oval WP was applied on a Winchester installed barrel".
That would be consistent with what Pauline Meurrle wrote in a thread on this subject a year or two ago, but those threads seem to no longer be available. She was told by one of the long time Winchester employees that – basically – if if the gun has a WP on the barrel (whether by itself or with the P) the gun left the factory that way. Wish those old threads were still here.
Matt
Thanks all for the interesting discussion. The use of the (P) on the mail order barrels makes sense, .Also the ( usual Winchester) additional proof if done in the factory makes sense to prove it was factory installed and they are responsible for complaints only for WP marked proofed barrels , whereas if only (P) , proves they did not install it , so would not be responsible for 2nd party gunsmith work.(resulting headspace issues etc.) There must be different implications , else why go to the trouble of making and using 2 different stamps? or even bothering to stamp it twice for that matter
Phil
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