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I have spent several hours reading a lot of the existing threads on this, but am posting anyway as some of what I’m wondering isn’t answered.
I have an 1886 from 1887 chambered in 45-90. It has a 4xxx serial number, and based on what I read, seems to not have a nickel barrel.
My friend who is excellent at reloading has helped me with a 12.0 gr Unique load, with this Matt’s 458-365-RF-GC bullet. We did not specifically choose this bullet for this use, I just had them lying around for 45-70 and was anxious to shoot this new 45-90.
It went very great, no problems, and very accurate. The only oddity I noticed was my redding 45-90 dies had the seating stem 100% as low as it could go and it just barely worked. I will call them later.
My next goals are:
1) potentially switch to the original 300gr cast bullet. i just would like to find it online somewhere, as I don’t cast. I don’t really want to shoot jacketed bullets
2) I love big recoil (50-110, 700gr 500 S&W etc). This is obviously… not that. But it would be nice to have a smidge more power… if possible, assuming it’s safe, and doesn’t compromise this expensive purchase. The 12gr of unique was like shooting a 22. This is my first time owning a blackpowder-only gun so I’m quite in the dark as far as what pressures are allowed… or how much I could work up this Unique load. Optionally I also have lots of 4198, 3031. I really hate using fillers, and ideally I don’t have to do that with a different load. I’m using Magnum Large Rifle CCI
3) can someone explain what smokeless pressures my gun is “safe” to? I’ve read 20,000 (PSI or CUP)… is that accurate? Even further, is that even a fair 1:1 comparison? If BP truly is “XX,XXX” PSI/CUP, then would any smokeless load LESS than that be safe? Or does it also matter how fast the (same) max pressure builds, leading to this being deceiving metric
Thanks!
I can’t help because I’ve got a modern 1886 in 45-90 I haven’t fired yet and look forward to what our experts have to say in response.
One question. I assume you didn’t have any ignition problems with the 12 grains of Unique, since you didn’t mention any and don’t like fillers. When shooting, did you take any steps to make sure the powder charge was in reasonable proximity to the primer?
I still miss SR 4759.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
With the proper loads, 4198 creates slightly less pressure than the original 2F black powder factory loads. The starting load for the 45-90 WCF with a 300-gr bullet is 34-grains of IMR 4198, and no filler is required or needed. Work your load up slowly until you get to 1450 – 1500 fps.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
With the proper loads, 4198 creates slightly less pressure than the original 2F black powder factory loads. The starting load for the 45-90 WCF with a 300-gr bullet is 34-grains of IMR 4198, and no filler is required or needed. Work your load up slowly until you get to 1450 – 1500 fps.Bert
Good thing I just bought 8 pounds of 4198 about 10 minutes ago!!!
THANKS BERT!
Zebulon said
I can’t help because I’ve got a modern 1886 in 45-90 I haven’t fired yet and look forward to what our experts have to say in response.One question. I assume you didn’t have any ignition problems with the 12 grains of Unique, since you didn’t mention any and don’t like fillers. When shooting, did you take any steps to make sure the powder charge was in reasonable proximity to the primer?
I still miss SR 4759.
I didn’t have any ignition problems at all. I did not try to finagle the powder near the primer either.
I’ve always wondered how this “flashover” works though, as some people say it cannot be recreated in a lab, and other people say it blows your gun up. I am of a technical mind, and none of these answers satisfy me. Surely there must be some scientific method for how to prevent these explosions?
When I started loading the 86 calibers I used Clyde Williamson’s book “Winchester Lever Legacy” as a guide. He says in the Preface “My personal documented experiences include firing 750,000 rounds and maintaining a journal of these firing”. I soon learned that his loads were hot and backed done his loads to factory velocity. On the cases used in the 86, being large, he many times used TP as a filler. My loads incorporate much of his information but toned down to Winchester period velocity. Clyde was a hunter so his concern was how it put the animal down, I cut targets.
Since Clyde’s day many new powders have come to light that don’t need fillers, so I’ve been told. I’m stuck in the past with TP, cornmeal, Winchester loading tools. and sights. It’s been fun and I haven’t damaged anything yet. T/R
November 7, 2015
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Exuma-
If your velocities are erratic it may be due to poor ignition involving a powder that is position sensitive. I don’t like using fillers but with a small charge of Unique powder in a big case I think you will see some benefit. I am undecided about the flashover theories, I suspect there is some other as yet unidentified factor involved. You can avoid this by using 5744 or one of the 4198 powders or of course, Holy Black. In my experience the best way to obtain BP velocities in the big 45-90 case is with black powder. I’m admittedly a bit biased but I haven’t found a smokeless load I like in the 45-90.
Mike
ETA: I see TR and I are of the same mind this morning. I did indeed use Snookie’s TP filler method with another cartridge awhile back and described my experience in the “Tale of Two Rifles” article in the Collector.
MH
Awesome, thank you guys. BTW, here was my chronograph data from the 10 shots I fired with the 12gr unique, no filler:
1078 avg FPS
5.3 std Dev
I wish I knew where to buy 5744, but unfortunately i only have a tiny amount left and its not worth building loads up for it only to have to change my formula after a few range trips
Luckily like i said, i did just buy 8 lbs of 4198, so i will use that
I get 1,550 fps with 31 grains of 4198. So as others have said start low and work up. So far I have not found any PSI listed in any loading manual for any of the loads and nobody here has calculated it. So be careful. I use toilet paper. Just enough to keep the powder near the primer. It is not compressed just rolled in a tube shape and lightly pushed down. If you read P. O. Ackley’s book he talks about know incidents where a flash over has blown up guns. That’s enough proof for me. I posted this once before it shows in a 45 Colt a smokeless powder produced too much pressure so it had to be loaded at a lower amount that produced a lower fps to be safe.
Just my two cents, but I only shoot 2F out of my 1886 1st year production run and my Sharps (Pedersoli) 45-70s. I have to check my load data, but it’s somewhere around 62 grains below a 520 grain cast bullet in the Sharps.
Steven Gabrielli said
Just my two cents, but I only shoot 2F out of my 1886 1st year production run and my Sharps (Pedersoli) 45-70s. I have to check my load data, but it’s somewhere around 62 grains below a 520 grain cast bullet in the Sharps.
Steve,
Your load will not shoot accurately in an original Model 1886 chambered for the 45-90 WCF as the rifling twist rate is way too slow to stabilize a bullet that heavy/large. Winchester used a 1:32 twist rate for the 45-90 (versus 1:22 for the 45-70), and that will stabilize bullets up to approximately 350-grains, with a 300-grain bullet being the optimum for accuracy. Anything heavier (longer)than 350-gr will not adequately stabilize (tumble & keyhole) in a 45-90 WCF.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert, do you have a suggestion for a good accurate mold that fits the most optimal 300gr bullet?
Or maybe a cast bullet for sale somewhere (I do not cast)
I know theres the original winchester mold, but I was trying to find a place i can buy 300gr perfect bullet online, cast, not jacketed, and I can buy 500 or 1000
November 7, 2015
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Bert H. said
Steven Gabrielli said
Just my two cents, but I only shoot 2F out of my 1886 1st year production run and my Sharps (Pedersoli) 45-70s. I have to check my load data, but it’s somewhere around 62 grains below a 520 grain cast bullet in the Sharps.
Steve,
Your load will not shoot accurately in an original Model 1886 chambered for the 45-90 WCF as the rifling twist rate is way too slow to stabilize a bullet that heavy/large. Winchester used a 1:32 twist rate for the 45-90 (versus 1:22 for the 45-70), and that will stabilize bullets up to approximately 350-grains, with a 300-grain bullet being the optimum for accuracy. Anything heavier (longer)than 350-gr will not adequately stabilize (tumble & keyhole) in a 45-90 WCF.
Bert
We need to remember the Winchester 45-90 is not the same as the Sharps 45-90. The cartridges made for the Winchester are sometimes called Express loads because they employ a lighter & faster bullet. The Sharps uses a faster twist and a heavier bullet. For some reason the lighter (shorter) bullets don’t perform well in the faster twist single shot rifles. I treat them as distinctly different cartridges, just as I do variations of the 45-70 and 45 Colt. For some folks the 45-70 may be 3-4 different cartridges.
Mike
Exuma said
Bert, do you have a suggestion for a good accurate mold that fits the most optimal 300gr bullet?Or maybe a cast bullet for sale somewhere (I do not cast)
I know theres the original winchester mold, but I was trying to find a place i can buy 300gr perfect bullet online, cast, not jacketed, and I can buy 500 or 1000
I do not. I have not ever had the need for .45 caliber 300-gr cast bullets.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
Steven Gabrielli said
Just my two cents, but I only shoot 2F out of my 1886 1st year production run and my Sharps (Pedersoli) 45-70s. I have to check my load data, but it’s somewhere around 62 grains below a 520 grain cast bullet in the Sharps.
Steve,
Your load will not shoot accurately in an original Model 1886 chambered for the 45-90 WCF as the rifling twist rate is way too slow to stabilize a bullet that heavy/large. Winchester used a 1:32 twist rate for the 45-90 (versus 1:22 for the 45-70), and that twist will stabilize bullets up to approximately 350-grains, with a 300-grain bullet being the optimum for accuracy. Anything heavier (longer) than 350-gr will not adequately stabilize (tumble & keyhole) in a 45-90 WCF.
Bert
I agree Bert, I only shoot those 520s out of the Sharps and my original Trapdoors. I used a Lyman mold 457124 for the 1886, it was around 386 grains cause that’s what I had lying around, I don’t shoot it much. I also had a handful loaded with 405 grains for some reason, but I’ve yet to shoot those. Thanks for the reminder.
426crown said
.45-70 Round Nose Flat Point – .458 Diameter – 300 Grain Lead Cast Bullets
awesome, thank you
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