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How “rare” are the 1894’s with the August 14, 1894 patent date? Just wondering how many have been documented in the various member surveys out there. How many rifles vs. carbines? Does this error add a premium to the value? If so, how much percentagewise? As a collector interested in the factory “odd-ball” guns, such as the 94/95 hybrid carbines, error patent date guns, etc. I was just looking for some kind of rule of thumb when factoring in the rarity value.
Thanks,
Don
Don
From my POV it’s not a big deal. Best I can tell, it only shows up on carbine barrels manufactured during a specific time period. The dates on the “error marking” are the patent dates for the 86 & 92, my guess the engraver cutting the roll mixed them up.
Unlike the rare coin world, where die mistakes command a premium, in the Winchester realm, it doesn’t seem to have an impact. As long as the error is in the correct time frame, which helps support the guns originality.
An August 14 error date saddle ring carbine, 38-55, serial number 400073 sold last night on gun broker for $5500, and a deluxe takedown, serial number 273334 with the error date sold on March 8 for over $13,000
But, how much would these two specimens bring without the error date? Is it perhaps about the same amount? Or, does it look like there is a ‘premium’?
Personally, the error date is a curiosity, more than anything else. I would not pay any more for it.
I’m with mrcvs, post the links.
I have a couple with the “error date” paid based on the gun not the addy.
I would like to see that TD rifle with the error addy, I’ve only seen it on carbines. Never on a rifle
V/R
Mike
In my survey, I have found (7) Model 1894s with the August 14th patent date error. (6) of them were SRCs, and (1) was an ELW Rifle, 22″ barrel. The serial number range for all (7) guns is 359029 – 381435. The 38-55 with serial number 400073 does not surprise me, but the Deluxe Take Down Rifle serial number 273334 is well outside what I would consider the correct serial number range. I too would like to see the auction links.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
In my survey, I have found (7) Model 1894s with the August 14th patent date error. (6) of them were SRCs, and (1) was an ELW Rifle, 22″ barrel. The serial number range for all (7) guns is 359029 – 381435. The 38-55 with serial number 400073 does not surprise me, but the Deluxe Take Down Rifle serial number 273334 is well outside what I would consider the correct serial number range. I too would like to see the auction links.
Bert
links to the two that sold on GB that I was talking about.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=472338905
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=469491392
Al
Looking at both those auctions, I dont think the barrel addy had any bearing on the sale price.
Mike Hunter said
That ELW, Round or Oct?
Mike,
22″ round barrel.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Thanks Bert
I know Winchester had separate roll dies for Octagon, Round and Carbine barrels, it only make sense that Winchester would use the carbine roll die for lightweight round barrels.
tionesta1 said
Bert H. said
In my survey, I have found (7) Model 1894s with the August 14th patent date error. (6) of them were SRCs, and (1) was an ELW Rifle, 22″ barrel. The serial number range for all (7) guns is 359029 – 381435. The 38-55 with serial number 400073 does not surprise me, but the Deluxe Take Down Rifle serial number 273334 is well outside what I would consider the correct serial number range. I too would like to see the auction links.
Bertlinks to the two that sold on GB that I was talking about.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=472338905
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=469491392
Al
Those are pretty nice looking
Mike Hunter said
Looking at both those auctions, I dont think the barrel addy had any bearing on the sale price.
Mike,
I agree. I’m fairly new to Winchester collecting and am always trying to learn as much as I can. That’s why it’s great to have the experts on this forum.
Al
Bert H. said
In my survey, I have found (7) Model 1894s with the August 14th patent date error. (6) of them were SRCs, and (1) was an ELW Rifle, 22″ barrel. The serial number range for all (7) guns is 359029 – 381435. The 38-55 with serial number 400073 does not surprise me, but the Deluxe Take Down Rifle serial number 273334 is well outside what I would consider the correct serial number range. I too would like to see the auction links.
Bert
Bert,
Based on the numbers you provided from your survey, is it possible to make a guesstimate of how many error date 1894s exist? Did Winchester use multiple roll dies for carbines and lightweight round barrels during that serial number range or did they use the same roll die until it broke? Are there variations or would one assume that all carbine and lightweight round barrels in serial number range 359029-ish to 381435-ish have the error date?
Don
With regards to this rifle:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=469491392
I would think the inscription, if factory, would be mentioned in the letter. It is not. Was it overlooked (doubtful)? If not, then how does this affect value?
On page 332 of my Madis book is a Winchester 1886, deluxe, in .45-90, in the 94,000 range, that contains an inscription from 1895. Madis says this is RARE. Now that we are all aware of the ‘problems’ with Madis’ data, do you think this inscription on this particular rifle is rare, or even factory original? It is very attractive style of engraving, however, in a Calligraphic style, and contains the name of the owner and the initials of the person who gave him the rifle. How does this inscription affect the value? If factory original? If not factory original?
Here are my concerns:
On the inscribed guns that I have seen, have lettered that way.
On the inscribed guns that I have seen, the inscription was under the finish, meaning that the guns were inscribed before finishing.
CORNELIUS A. WOOD born 1893, rifle made in 1807, so he would have been 14 years old when that gun left the factory, plausible …yes, realistic…..Ummmm
I actually handled the deluxe with the Cornelius Wood inscription and talked to the Cabela’s Buda, TX shop manager in doing so. He didn’t have a Cody search form at the time but admitted to me in person that he thought the inscription was after-market, albeit very well done. The rifle overall was just as nice as the auction pics show, if not nicer. But for the asking price with an after-market inscription, I passed. Looking back, what the hell do I know???
As for the error date, I own an eastern carbine with the Aug 14 date on it. It’s SN 351736. I bought it from an auction way up north. Carbines aren’t my thing but I put in what I thought was a low-ball bid on a good condition gun with some special features (shotgun butt, no sling ring, 3-leaf express sight) and wound up as the winning bidder. I personally didn’t price it off of the error date; I view it as an added bonus.
Greg
What exactly does the August 14, 1894 patent date pertain to? Was it the patent to a component part of the 1894 or the patent date of a different model? Just trying to understand how the August 14, 1894 patent date got confused with the correct patent date of August 21, 1894 at the factory.
Don
Second post in this thread may answer your question….
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
Tedk said
Second post in this thread may answer your question….
The patent date barrel marking on my 1892’s are October 14, 1884. The patent date on my 1886 (on the lower tang) reads PAT. OCT.14, 1884 / JAN. 20, 1885. So just wondering what the August 14, 1894 patent date corresponded with (if anything).
Don
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