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I purchased a membership to the Winchester Collectors for the purpose of putting up a post and getting some productive feedback. Perhaps I should have saved my money. I will just stick to the folks at the Winchester museum for my inquiries and to those collectors and dealers whom I know are willing to share their knowledge.
Mark
I tried to make it through this entire thread and did glance at the gunbroker forum link, but admittedly I don’t follow that forum at all and wasn’t real impressed with a few comments I read there. It looks like some here attempted to answer your specific questions from the top of this thread.
I did notice you joined the Winchester Arms Collectors Association and I would like to say that if you are interested in learning more about Winchesters this is a great organization and I would like to see anyone that joins give a chance; and for anyone else considering joining–please do so. I use our forum regularly, but the club offers much more, including a high quality, quarterly magazine and the great opportunity to meet fellow collectors. I have met some outstanding individuals since I’ve been in the club and I’m specifically looking forward to our Cody, WY show in July. Several of these individuals have been most gracious with their time and I for one have learned a great deal since I joined.
Brad
hedley lamarr said
I purchased a membership to the Winchester Collectors for the purpose of putting up a post and getting some productive feedback. Perhaps I should have saved my money. I will just stick to the folks at the Winchester museum for my inquiries and to those collectors and dealers whom I know are willing to share their knowledge.
Mark
I tried to make it through this entire thread and did glance at the gunbroker forum link, but admittedly I don’t follow that forum at all and wasn’t real impressed with a few comments I read there. It looks like some here attempted to answer your specific questions from the top of this thread.
I did notice you joined the Winchester Arms Collectors Association and I would like to say that if you are interested in learning more about Winchesters this is a great organization and I would like to see anyone that joins give a chance; and for anyone else considering joining–please do so. I use our forum regularly, but the club offers much more, including a high quality, quarterly magazine and the great opportunity to meet fellow collectors. I have met some outstanding individuals since I’ve been in the club and I’m specifically looking forward to our Cody, WY show in July. Several of these individuals have been most gracious with their time and I for one have learned a great deal since I joined.
Brad
Brad
I don’t consider myself an expert but I am by no means a “greenie”. I have been collecting Winchester lever guns for about 20 years so have learned a few things. When I see something new or odd I research it as best as I can. If I can’t find the answer on my own then I reach out for the input of others. Yes a few folks on here provide some good, interesting information and I am appreciative of that.
Mark
Mark;
After reading through all three pages of this thread the conclusion I once again come to is as follows, “Do Not Take What ANY, REPEAT ANY of us tell you is The Way it Should Be”, especially when it comes to ANY Winchester that you might be interested in. MRCVS likes to collect perfect conditioned Winchesters and Colt SAA firearms. Good for him that he’s in a position to do so. The fact that he looks down on anything other than those perfect firearms, and will not even consider those in lesser condition, unless “Cheap”, that’s his choice. To me this makes him the “Perfect Mark” to be ripped off big time. There are “Craftsmen” out there that are good enough to fool ANY so called “Expert”. Remember this Mark, it’s easier to fake a “Pristine” conditioned firearm than one well used. George Madis used to collect Winchesters with a “Story” not those in pristine condition. He told me more than once he’d rather have a gun with “Character” than one that looked like it just emerged from the factory. I agreed with him in that I myself like History (the story) behind the Collectable, and don’t care if it looks like it was beat up and left for dead. If you want to collect the “Guns That Won the West”, you won’t find them in the closet, never opened, never fired, never seeing the light of day. If you ever saw John Holliday’s (Doc) Colt SAA, or John Ringo’s Colt SAA, they both look just as you would expect them to. Both were carried and used. Both in a worn condition. Don’t pay much attention to these “Nay Sayers” as they’ll only make you pissed. We all have our own ideas as to what makes the perfect Winchester, Colt, S&W, or whatever you collect. Ours of course being better than yours. We’re, at least most anyway are glad you joined WACA, so do ask your questions of us. Listen to ALL the answers. Discount 75% of them. Last but not least, do the hard work and find out the answers for yourself, then you’ll truly enjoy this Hobby. You may not get rich doing it, but you’ll certainly be entertained.
Apache, (Ya Ta Hey Kola)
Apache,
Thanks for the kind words. I completely understand where MRCVS and others like him are coming from. Everyone has their opinion. I know just as well as the rest of you to “never say never” with Winchesters. I do like doing the research myself and figured I would start my research on the WACA forum. Unfortunately, although I did receive some informative comments the mystery of my 76 remains and probably always will remain. It is a very interesting and fairly high condition rifle. Whom ever had the gun configured as it is really knew what they wanted. The gun balances and carries very nicely. Although I can’t find another 76 with a grooved forearm, anyone who might hold the gun would agree that grooved forearms should have been put on more rifles. It just feels right. I wish I knew the story of this old gun. As it’s configured it must have been used but the condition is such that it does not appear used much. As you mentioned, it is the pristine guns that get “faked”. I do not believe anyone made modifications to this 76 to “fake” anything. If so there surely would not be the serial number markings under the barrel and on the bolt. But, the question remains as to why the numbers were put there?? And, why did the gun sit in the warehouse for 1.5 years when the guns on either side of it left the warehouse after only few days? I would appreciate any additional thoughts from anybody who would like to weigh in.
Larry,
There are fake Winchesters everywhere. I like Trapper carbines. What is next is the owner gets a BATF letter stating the gun is correct. Next you see a large selling price at a big time auction. The buyer did knot read the Madis letter, which stated a trace of finish. Now the gun is 90% with a new barrel. The fakers are using late ’92s. Another 94 sold with with a new barrel with wrong markings. Ask BobR. This started, as well as I know, around 25 years ago when Mike Wayne sold 3 Trappers at a John Gangel auction with new barrels.
As Larry stated, become your own Expert.
Walter
Walter;
I had a friend that passed away about 10 years ago that claimed in order to get extra money while in college he made more “Trapper” Marlin rifles than did the company. One reason I only owned one Marlin. It was an early 1881 rifle. I’ve myself never owned a “Trapper”, but that doesn’t mean much. One thing though, I’m sure there were as many “Home Made Trapper Rifles” with the name Winchester as there were the Marlins, but perhaps not by the person I knew, as he liked the Marlin product. “Caviate Emptor”, Wally, the only two words one has to remember in collecting anything. All the others in any language one could assume might be B.S. EXECEPT FROM ME, OF COURSE!!!!!! HA,HA,HA,HA,HA,HA. Once again I’ll state this for ALL, “What ever you collect you must educate yourself. Believe no one. Better to pass on that “Once in a life time Winchester” that’s being sold by Abraham L. (Honest Abe) if you’re not sure, than to find out later you’ve been had.
Larry, (Ya, Ta, Hey, Kola)
There are “fake” guns; guns that someone has altered to intentionally rip someone off by making it appear more valuable to an unsuspecting, uneducated individual. Then there are “real” guns; guns that are original as they left the factory OR were modified sometime during their lives in order to be more useable, personal to their owners. Maybe the alterations were made by the owner or by a gunsmith other than Winchester but these are still “real” guns. Aren’t they??
Mart,
I have no problem with guns altered back in the day. After all, they were tools used to put food on the table. I personally like rare Winchesters with honest use. I have a ’73 and ’66 carbine ( Indian used) that just ooze history. In fact, they are the only guns my wife wants to keep when I am gone. What I do have a problem with is when a faker takes A 5k Winchester and turns it into a 25k gun to fool the neophyte. How many collectors have ever seen a Trapper carbine, much less what it is supposed to look like? I am seeing fakers going to rare guns no one sees on on a regular basis.
Walter
Walter,
I agree. Come to think of it, the fact that the barrel and bolt of the 76 rifle this post is about has the gun’s serial number on them is proof that the gun was not deliberately altered to fool someone. It is what it is. The gun was alrered either by Winchester or an outside smith to satisfy the owner. The gun carries and shoots much easier with the sling swivels, grooved forend, and shorter barrel. It really is a beautiful rifle.
Thanks walter i will. It seems quite content in the safe with its 40 or so brothers and sisters!!
apache said
Mark;
After reading through all three pages of this thread the conclusion I once again come to is as follows, “Do Not Take What ANY, REPEAT ANY of us tell you is The Way it Should Be”, especially when it comes to ANY Winchester that you might be interested in. MRCVS likes to collect perfect conditioned Winchesters and Colt SAA firearms. Good for him that he’s in a position to do so. The fact that he looks down on anything other than those perfect firearms, and will not even consider those in lesser condition, unless “Cheap”, that’s his choice. To me this makes him the “Perfect Mark” to be ripped off big time. There are “Craftsmen” out there that are good enough to fool ANY so called “Expert”. Remember this Mark, it’s easier to fake a “Pristine” conditioned firearm than one well used. George Madis used to collect Winchesters with a “Story” not those in pristine condition. He told me more than once he’d rather have a gun with “Character” than one that looked like it just emerged from the factory. I agreed with him in that I myself like History (the story) behind the Collectable, and don’t care if it looks like it was beat up and left for dead. If you want to collect the “Guns That Won the West”, you won’t find them in the closet, never opened, never fired, never seeing the light of day. If you ever saw John Holliday’s (Doc) Colt SAA, or John Ringo’s Colt SAA, they both look just as you would expect them to. Both were carried and used. Both in a worn condition. Don’t pay much attention to these “Nay Sayers” as they’ll only make you pissed. We all have our own ideas as to what makes the perfect Winchester, Colt, S&W, or whatever you collect. Ours of course being better than yours. We’re, at least most anyway are glad you joined WACA, so do ask your questions of us. Listen to ALL the answers. Discount 75% of them. Last but not least, do the hard work and find out the answers for yourself, then you’ll truly enjoy this Hobby. You may not get rich doing it, but you’ll certainly be entertained.
Apache, (Ya Ta Hey Kola)
I had just read something toward the back of his big book the other night about how a gun that shows some use is the only one that can have any real history. It sounds like that was important to him from what I’ve read the last few years.
Brad
Mark,
I was thinking about your open top 1876. In my humble opinion, I think owner of that gun had a friend that bought a later one with a dust cover and he decided to upgrade his using a local gunsmith instead of sending it back to the factory.
Walter
Wally,
The lid, along with the set trigger are listed in the Cody letter so are original to the gun from Winchester. The lid is also the early thumb print style.
Mark
To set the record straight–
I do like, and prefer, factory original firearms with condition, but don’t we all! This can be a very costly proposition, and, indeed, as others have pointed out on this thread, and I have stated on other threads, proceed with caution!!! These are the firearms most likely to be altered with intent to deceive, as the prospect of monetary gain trumps integrity for those who wish to make profits in a devious manner. Indeed, because of this, I proceed cautiously lately, and rarely buy anything unless the history is known. The last few Winchesters with condition I have bought came out of the collection of a long time collector who became a friend, and I bought some very nice stuff from him, but some of the very best stuff was well out of my price range and sold at James Julia’s auction a few years back. Even then, despite stating emphatically that I dislike non-factory alterations (such as, a groove sanded into a forearm and an ivory inlay), he had in his collection a 98% + Deluxe Winchester 1886 that had a receiver sight placed on it in the teens or twenties, when it was ‘just an old gun’. It had no collector value then. But I liked it and the price came down to where I was comfortable with it. Since the stuff I bought off of this friend, the only thing else I have pursued is a high condition deluxe Winchester that I bought off of a long-time gun dealer friend that I have known for 2/3 of my life. He found this gun from a customer who had it in his family for 130+ years.
However, you really can’t shoot this stuff, and I really enjoy shooting black powder rounds. So, I have several Winchesters that show use, but again, these firearms do not contain non-factory alterations. Indeed, one of the last firearms I would part with, despite owning several high-condition Winchesters is a second year production Winchester 1892 with an octagon barrel in .38-40. Indeed, it is not in bad shape, maybe an 80% gun, but I can shoot this gun, it still contains a significant amount of factory bluing, obviously (as it is an 80% gun), and it is in .38-40, a cartridge I really enjoy reloading and shooting. Definitely not a museum quality firearm, but one of my favourites!
Lastly, sometimes one cannot simply afford or find a high condition firearm, if one truly wants that. For me, my “holy grail” gun is an original Colt Walker, with provenance. A decent example of this, with virtually no condition, easily runs into the six figures these days.
I hope I have clarified my views with regards to the several aforementioned posts, above.
Mrcvs
In kind response to your last post.
You have already made it perfectly clear what your views are and what it is you like to collect. The rest of us on here are happy for you and i hope your collection of pristine guns grows. However, with that said, perhaps you should hold your tongue when someone asks a question about a gun that may be, or clearly is, not all original since you have no interest in such guns. I dont particularly care for glock pistols but if i see a post somewhere about glock pistols im not gona bad mouth the guys gun, even though in mind they are junk and completely inferior to a kimber 1911. Thats meant to be light humor mrcvs.
Like you i too enjoy shooting the guns i collect. I have a safe full of winchesters. Only missing a 66. I shoot them all. Im gona shoot the shit out of the 76. Hopefuly get it dialed in and take a deer or bear with it next season. I dont NEED to use the 76 for such things, could use my model 70, but it would be a whole lot more fun with the 76. Now thats what makes collecting fun for me.
Thanks again to everyone who commented on my post. I look at it like this, part of me wishes the work done to my 76 was of poor quality or reblued so then there would be no question that the work was done outside winchester (clearly the ivory inlay was). But, because the gun looks so well done (obviously not to fake the gun for profit as i only paid 1500) and has considerable original finish, the other part of me enjoys the mystery of not knowing who did the work but appreciating that whoever had the work done (the gun was modified long ago) took great of it and knew what would make the gun work, shoot, handle, hunt, and look the best.
Mark
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