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Mark,
I was following this gun on Gun Broker forum. Some of the same guys are on this forum as well.
They did put dust covers on open tops. The gun has a lot of issues that are not easily explained from what we have seen Winchester do. The gun would have to be examined in person to really tell what happened to it. A expert needs to see fine detail of the metal finish and machining to tell if it was Winchester that did the latest work to it.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
Thanks Bob. With that said I hope I don’t hear more negative remarks about Madis or how incorrect my gun might be. Thought I would post it here hoping there might be some individuals who have seen something similar. Not necessarily looking for originality or value comments just thoughts as to the markings mentioned. Other than one post on here pertaining to dust covers on open tops (and that post did not mention anything about the bolt) I have not seen anything dealing with the earlier variation of the 76. Does anyone else on here have a 1st variation 76 with factory added dust cover?
Online
I am going to state it again… your Model 1976 has been altered by someone other than Winchester. Too many thing about it do not add up properly.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
And I am going to state it again Bert, I am not looking for comments on originality. I am looking for input from other individuals who own early 76s, or those who have inspected such guns, with factory added dust covers or who have seen similar markings on early 76s as those on my gun.
Why post in MULTIPLE threads about a Winchester 1876 with “problems” and waste time “researching” a non-factory original dust cover? I suppose if you post in multiple threads about your Winchester, an “expert” might post the response you are seeking–e.g., you have an extremely rare rifle, that, despite what multiple other experts have stated, is worth infinitely more than you paid for it. Why beat a dead horse? Best to move on and use the energy to learn about and inquire about factory original Winchester rifles. Not only are these interesting and worthy of learning about, they generally appreciate in value and make for good investments, over time. An altered Winchester has no collector value. Best sell it for whatever it brings, or part it out.
mrcvs If you would have actually read my post you would have seen that it is stated in the list of options in the factory letter for this gun “lid”. So the gun is an early open top that came from the factory with a special order lid, or for clarification to you, a dust cover. I am asking questions about a gun with factory work. The reason for posting here after posting on Gunbroker is that I was I was hoping I would find individuals on this site, unlike Gunbroker, with some worthy input instead of just getting a reaming about how “non-factory” the gun in question is. Unfortunately between you and bert I am just getting more of the same here.
I will ask the question again: Is there anybody out there who has, has seen, or has handled an early open top 76 with a lettered special order dust cover?
mrcvs said
Why post in MULTIPLE threads about a Winchester 1876 with “problems” and waste time “researching” a non-factory original dust cover? I suppose if you post in multiple threads about your Winchester, an “expert” might post the response you are seeking–e.g., you have an extremely rare rifle, that, despite what multiple other experts have stated, is worth infinitely more than you paid for it. Why beat a dead horse? Best to move on and use the energy to learn about and inquire about factory original Winchester rifles. Not only are these interesting and worthy of learning about, they generally appreciate in value and make for good investments, over time. An altered Winchester has no collector value. Best sell it for whatever it brings, or part it out.
I take offense to your post. Let me explain. I love history, research, and attempting to reach logical conclusions, regardless of whether or not a gun, for example, is all factory original. I think the individual has some legitimate questions about his rifle aside from whatever might not be seen as factory original. I, too, am researching my 45-70 Whitney-Kennedy rifle in an attempt to not only find out what might be factory original and what is not factory original, but for the sake of promoting intelligence among people who have an interest in this type of rifle. For certain, the promotion of learning is being set back by comments such as yours. And, your comment “Best sell it for whatever it brings, or part it out.” is uncalled for and absurd at best.
James
I have been gathering serial numbers on the model 1876 for the past several years. To date, I have approximately 4500 serial numbers for known guns. Of these guns, I have 19 that are recorded “with lid”. The lowest serial number I have “with lid”, is 405 and the highest one on my list “with lid”, is 8507. This of course is not the total number that are recorded in the warehouse ledgers “with lid”, these are the only ones I have found so far. I’m sure there are many more. Remember, my list contains only guns that exist today. In my opinion, this particular feature although interesting, is not what I would consider rare.
JWM94 said
mrcvs said
Why post in MULTIPLE threads about a Winchester 1876 with “problems” and waste time “researching” a non-factory original dust cover? I suppose if you post in multiple threads about your Winchester, an “expert” might post the response you are seeking–e.g., you have an extremely rare rifle, that, despite what multiple other experts have stated, is worth infinitely more than you paid for it. Why beat a dead horse? Best to move on and use the energy to learn about and inquire about factory original Winchester rifles. Not only are these interesting and worthy of learning about, they generally appreciate in value and make for good investments, over time. An altered Winchester has no collector value. Best sell it for whatever it brings, or part it out.
I take offense to your post. Let me explain. I love history, research, and attempting to reach logical conclusions, regardless of whether or not a gun, for example, is all factory original. I think the individual has some legitimate questions about his rifle aside from whatever might not be seen as factory original. I, too, am researching my 45-70 Whitney-Kennedy rifle in an attempt to not only find out what might be factory original and what is not factory original, but for the sake of promoting intelligence among people who have an interest in this type of rifle. For certain, the promotion of learning is being set back by comments such as yours. And, your comment “Best sell it for whatever it brings, or part it out.” is uncalled for and absurd at best.
James
The logical conclusion has already been made–this particular rifle has “issues”. Granted, it does have a special order feature (e.g., a “lid”), and perhaps the inquiry as to how commonplace this particular feature is, is indeed a valid one. However, at this stage of Winchester collecting, I have learned not to waste much time on firearms with “issues”. It is pointless. When an individual posts in multiple threads, it give the impression that he or she is “fishing” for the answer one is seeking–e.g., the thought process is, “Gee, if I post enough times in enough threads, perhaps I will get the answer I am seeking”, which, in this case, is that my rifle with “issues”, for which I probably paid too much for, has this special order feature of a “lid” which makes it infinitely more valuable and justifies my purchase price.
How about the OP posts some photos of the rifle. Then we can determine if my statement of perhaps parting it out may be valid. The part about best selling it for whatever it brings is indeed valid. Why waste time with a gun with issues, unless one wants a “shooter”. In that case, hold on to it.
A key point I have learned: There are original guns with condition, brown (or patina) guns that have not been messed with, guns with condition that are faked or have other issues, and brown guns with “issues”. (More or less–you can break these categories down, based on what the “condition” is.) Best to stick with the guns with condition and without issues. If a really rare feature, and a brown gun, but not issues, then okay, too! AVOID at all costs guns with “issues”, unless obtained cheaply for a shooter. There are a finite number of funds available to purchase antique Winchesters, these being finite, too, but presumably the sum total of which exceeds one’s finite funds. So purchase wisely! Yes, I do have a few firearms with some “issues”, but these were not modified to deceive, etc. I purchased a deluxe Model 1886, with numerous features, in 95 % condition, except someone placed a period receiver sight on it in the 19-teen’s or 1920’s. I purchased at a price which reflects this modification, But this firearm has condition, and no other issues. This is about as far as I am willing to go these days dealing with guns with “issues”.
The questions about the serial number stamping are good ones. I could care less about the rest of the gun but that is info worth seeking.
mrcvs said
JWM94 said
mrcvs said
Why post in MULTIPLE threads about a Winchester 1876 with “problems” and waste time “researching” a non-factory original dust cover? I suppose if you post in multiple threads about your Winchester, an “expert” might post the response you are seeking–e.g., you have an extremely rare rifle, that, despite what multiple other experts have stated, is worth infinitely more than you paid for it. Why beat a dead horse? Best to move on and use the energy to learn about and inquire about factory original Winchester rifles. Not only are these interesting and worthy of learning about, they generally appreciate in value and make for good investments, over time. An altered Winchester has no collector value. Best sell it for whatever it brings, or part it out.
I take offense to your post. Let me explain. I love history, research, and attempting to reach logical conclusions, regardless of whether or not a gun, for example, is all factory original. I think the individual has some legitimate questions about his rifle aside from whatever might not be seen as factory original. I, too, am researching my 45-70 Whitney-Kennedy rifle in an attempt to not only find out what might be factory original and what is not factory original, but for the sake of promoting intelligence among people who have an interest in this type of rifle. For certain, the promotion of learning is being set back by comments such as yours. And, your comment “Best sell it for whatever it brings, or part it out.” is uncalled for and absurd at best.
James
The logical conclusion has already been made–this particular rifle has “issues”. Granted, it does have a special order feature (e.g., a “lid”), and perhaps the inquiry as to how commonplace this particular feature is, is indeed a valid one. However, at this stage of Winchester collecting, I have learned not to waste much time on firearms with “issues”. It is pointless. When an individual posts in multiple threads, it give the impression that he or she is “fishing” for the answer one is seeking–e.g., the thought process is, “Gee, if I post enough times in enough threads, perhaps I will get the answer I am seeking”, which, in this case, is that my rifle with “issues”, for which I probably paid too much for, has this special order feature of a “lid” which makes it infinitely more valuable and justifies my purchase price.
How about the OP posts some photos of the rifle. Then we can determine if my statement of perhaps parting it out may be valid. The part about best selling it for whatever it brings is indeed valid. Why waste time with a gun with issues, unless one wants a “shooter”. In that case, hold on to it.
A key point I have learned: There are original guns with condition, brown (or patina) guns that have not been messed with, guns with condition that are faked or have other issues, and brown guns with “issues”. (More or less–you can break these categories down, based on what the “condition” is.) Best to stick with the guns with condition and without issues. If a really rare feature, and a brown gun, but not issues, then okay, too! AVOID at all costs guns with “issues”, unless obtained cheaply for a shooter. There are a finite number of funds available to purchase antique Winchesters, these being finite, too, but presumably the sum total of which exceeds one’s finite funds. So purchase wisely! Yes, I do have a few firearms with some “issues”, but these were not modified to deceive, etc. I purchased a deluxe Model 1886, with numerous features, in 95 % condition, except someone placed a period receiver sight on it in the 19-teen’s or 1920’s. I purchased at a price which reflects this modification, But this firearm has condition, and no other issues. This is about as far as I am willing to go these days dealing with guns with “issues”.
mrcvs,
Okay, I have reviewed the photographs.
The good, or great news, is that the modifications, at the very least, from what I can see, consist of a shortened barrel and magazine tube, an inlay in the stock, and a groove in the forearm, none of which are factory modifications and of the nature that they would not be, nor could be, passed off as “original” features to anyone, save for the greenest of collectors, and even this is debatable!
I would like to think all of us, or most of us, on this forum are honest individuals, and I think we are, but all it takes is one bad apple. I think more of the bad apples are found on the auction sites, but, at least initially, it seemed to me the OP was searching for one “expert” out there to say that his gun has the incredibly rare “lid”, and that would justify a ridiculously high asking price…but, as I said above, this gun would fool no one who collects Winchester rifles, and, if it does fool you, “do not pass go”!
I would agree that this gun is not a parts gun. This gun is nothing more than a “shooter”. However, from what I can well from the poor photos, the receiver looks fairly good and original. Therefore, I think that the OP should make known the full serial number on this forum, so that future researchers and scholars know what the state of this firearm is in 2016. This is exactly the type of firearm that is possibly likely to rear its head years or decades down the road modified or built to match the factory letter that corresponds to the receiver and its serial number.
On this forum, I think we are a good lot. In the “real world”, the community of Winchester “dealers” and “collectors” consists of a den of lying, thieving, and conniving individuals… Fortunately, those of us on this forum avoid the “real world”.
Don’t get me wrong, I still buy the occasional Winchester. Given that I have now progressed well beyond buying the run-of-the-mill pre-1898 Winchester “with patina” (unless incredibly cheap), it limits me to costlier Winchesters, and, when there is a dollar or two involved, dishonesty, while not the norm, can rear its ugly head. The money in Colts and Winchesters these days makes them prone to fraud.
November 5, 2014
Offline
OK… I have to express my point of view on this… I agree with the sentiments expressed by JWM94.
The only thing I collect seriously is M70 Winchesters. As MRCVS himself has pointed out in other posts, M70 collectors are subject to the “fungible factor”, meaning that there are no data (except PR dates) available to us, so we must rely on whether a gun “looks right” or not. Our only assets are one “good” book (Whitaker) and one “excellent” one (Rule) that establish what “real” should look like. But BOTH of these books were written before Al Gore invented the internet, so no matter how experienced these authors were, they have probably not “seen everything”…
If anyone looks at posts I have initiated on this site, they might conclude that I am only “seeking the answer I want” about M70s that do not conform to the gospel according to Rule (a gospel to which I profoundly adhere, BTW… Kudos to Mr. Rule for the thoroughness of his research). With all due respect… I does not benefit me, nor the broader WACA site readership, to post pics/questions about M70 rifles that conform to the “expected norm” (unless it is in response to a less experienced individual who comes to this site looking for info). I spend a good deal of time looking at “non-original” guns that I’d never buy myself for the sole purpose of observing what might be the original features (as I believe is the case in the original post in this thread).
The sole reason I post on this site is to see if I can get real M70 experts, like Steve Emmert, Vic Van Ballenbergh, Ted Kresky, Big Larry and MRCVS (among others), to share their considerable hands-on personal experience. Posts that, in essence, say “you gun is a fake, I know it, but I cannot tell YOU how I know it because that will enable the fakers”, contributes nothing either to me or this forum. If you want to keep your secrets to yourselves, that’s fine. It’s your right… But such posts appear to imply a certain “class superiority” that (should have) gone out with King George III. If I want to worship a secret society I’ll join the Masons… If members do not want to share their experience, fine. They should keep to themselves… Not posture… I can get that at work any day…
If Bert (or any of the other moderators) wants to block me from this site for expressing my frustration, well that’s OK. Personally I think Bert is a serious student of Winchester products who knows a TON about his area of study. Same for the MAJORITY of expert collectors who contribute to this site.
But can’t we keep this forum civil?
All the best,
Lou Luttrell
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
mrcvs said
JWM94 said
mrcvs said
Why post in MULTIPLE threads about a Winchester 1876 with “problems” and waste time “researching” a non-factory original dust cover? I suppose if you post in multiple threads about your Winchester, an “expert” might post the response you are seeking–e.g., you have an extremely rare rifle, that, despite what multiple other experts have stated, is worth infinitely more than you paid for it. Why beat a dead horse? Best to move on and use the energy to learn about and inquire about factory original Winchester rifles. Not only are these interesting and worthy of learning about, they generally appreciate in value and make for good investments, over time. An altered Winchester has no collector value. Best sell it for whatever it brings, or part it out.
I take offense to your post. Let me explain. I love history, research, and attempting to reach logical conclusions, regardless of whether or not a gun, for example, is all factory original. I think the individual has some legitimate questions about his rifle aside from whatever might not be seen as factory original. I, too, am researching my 45-70 Whitney-Kennedy rifle in an attempt to not only find out what might be factory original and what is not factory original, but for the sake of promoting intelligence among people who have an interest in this type of rifle. For certain, the promotion of learning is being set back by comments such as yours. And, your comment “Best sell it for whatever it brings, or part it out.” is uncalled for and absurd at best.
James
The logical conclusion has already been made–this particular rifle has “issues”. Granted, it does have a special order feature (e.g., a “lid”), and perhaps the inquiry as to how commonplace this particular feature is, is indeed a valid one. However, at this stage of Winchester collecting, I have learned not to waste much time on firearms with “issues”. It is pointless. When an individual posts in multiple threads, it give the impression that he or she is “fishing” for the answer one is seeking–e.g., the thought process is, “Gee, if I post enough times in enough threads, perhaps I will get the answer I am seeking”, which, in this case, is that my rifle with “issues”, for which I probably paid too much for, has this special order feature of a “lid” which makes it infinitely more valuable and justifies my purchase price.
How about the OP posts some photos of the rifle. Then we can determine if my statement of perhaps parting it out may be valid. The part about best selling it for whatever it brings is indeed valid. Why waste time with a gun with issues, unless one wants a “shooter”. In that case, hold on to it.
A key point I have learned: There are original guns with condition, brown (or patina) guns that have not been messed with, guns with condition that are faked or have other issues, and brown guns with “issues”. (More or less–you can break these categories down, based on what the “condition” is.) Best to stick with the guns with condition and without issues. If a really rare feature, and a brown gun, but not issues, then okay, too! AVOID at all costs guns with “issues”, unless obtained cheaply for a shooter. There are a finite number of funds available to purchase antique Winchesters, these being finite, too, but presumably the sum total of which exceeds one’s finite funds. So purchase wisely! Yes, I do have a few firearms with some “issues”, but these were not modified to deceive, etc. I purchased a deluxe Model 1886, with numerous features, in 95 % condition, except someone placed a period receiver sight on it in the 19-teen’s or 1920’s. I purchased at a price which reflects this modification, But this firearm has condition, and no other issues. This is about as far as I am willing to go these days dealing with guns with “issues”.
The one common theme in your posts mrcvs is value, cost, dollar value, etc. There are plenty of collectors, including myself, who are more interested in history of these old guns that what they are worth. I only paid $1500 for the gun so am not worried what it may be worth as I know if it was important to me, because of the high condition of the gun, I could easily double my money. But I’m not concerned with that. If the markings on the gun were not put there by Winchester then who did put them there. The gun was recorded with a lid, set trigger, and octagon barrel. Other than knowing when the gun entered and left the warehouse there is nothing else known for sure about the gun. Hence my inquiry. I guess I should have stated that “experts” need not comment. I have taken my questions to Cody and will see what Dan has to say.
A “lid” added to a 1st Model is somewhat common, not so much rare. I have one that was converted (caliber & trigger) prior to leaving the factory and it left with a dust cover (SN 2545)— the addition of the dust cover was not included in the records (Shipped in June 1880). As mentioned above the barrel has been shortened. The groove in the forearm & inlay was also added by a prior owner. As for the serial number stamping, I have taken quite a few of these apart (1st, 2nd, & 3rd models) and have never found the serial number applied anywhere besides the lower tang. It would be nice to see a pic of the marking on the barrel and bolt your describing. Ive seen assembly numbers in various places on internal parts but not the SN.
For many (or most) in the collecting community alterations from original or embellishments are a negative because they do take away from the market value. Thats not to say that it has no value because it obviously does–as my dad would say “its not exactly a fence post”. The alterations (cut barrel) may have been done out of necessity (poor bore or to reduce weight) or was just another feature applied along with the inlay or the forearm groove to personalize and suit the tastes of the prior owner. While we will never know its prior owners, we do know at least someone in its history decided Winchester just didnt get it right enough for them. It is what it is.
1892takedown @sbcglobal.net ......NRA Endowment Life Member.....WACA Member
"God is great.....beer is good.....and people are crazy"... Billy Currington
mrcvs said
JWM94 said
mrcvs said
Why post in MULTIPLE threads about a Winchester 1876 with “problems” and waste time “researching” a non-factory original dust cover? I suppose if you post in multiple threads about your Winchester, an “expert” might post the response you are seeking–e.g., you have an extremely rare rifle, that, despite what multiple other experts have stated, is worth infinitely more than you paid for it. Why beat a dead horse? Best to move on and use the energy to learn about and inquire about factory original Winchester rifles. Not only are these interesting and worthy of learning about, they generally appreciate in value and make for good investments, over time. An altered Winchester has no collector value. Best sell it for whatever it brings, or part it out.
I take offense to your post. Let me explain. I love history, research, and attempting to reach logical conclusions, regardless of whether or not a gun, for example, is all factory original. I think the individual has some legitimate questions about his rifle aside from whatever might not be seen as factory original. I, too, am researching my 45-70 Whitney-Kennedy rifle in an attempt to not only find out what might be factory original and what is not factory original, but for the sake of promoting intelligence among people who have an interest in this type of rifle. For certain, the promotion of learning is being set back by comments such as yours. And, your comment “Best sell it for whatever it brings, or part it out.” is uncalled for and absurd at best.
James
The logical conclusion has already been made–this particular rifle has “issues”. Granted, it does have a special order feature (e.g., a “lid”), and perhaps the inquiry as to how commonplace this particular feature is, is indeed a valid one. However, at this stage of Winchester collecting, I have learned not to waste much time on firearms with “issues”. It is pointless. When an individual posts in multiple threads, it give the impression that he or she is “fishing” for the answer one is seeking–e.g., the thought process is, “Gee, if I post enough times in enough threads, perhaps I will get the answer I am seeking”, which, in this case, is that my rifle with “issues”, for which I probably paid too much for, has this special order feature of a “lid” which makes it infinitely more valuable and justifies my purchase price.
How about the OP posts some photos of the rifle. Then we can determine if my statement of perhaps parting it out may be valid. The part about best selling it for whatever it brings is indeed valid. Why waste time with a gun with issues, unless one wants a “shooter”. In that case, hold on to it.
A key point I have learned: There are original guns with condition, brown (or patina) guns that have not been messed with, guns with condition that are faked or have other issues, and brown guns with “issues”. (More or less–you can break these categories down, based on what the “condition” is.) Best to stick with the guns with condition and without issues. If a really rare feature, and a brown gun, but not issues, then okay, too! AVOID at all costs guns with “issues”, unless obtained cheaply for a shooter. There are a finite number of funds available to purchase antique Winchesters, these being finite, too, but presumably the sum total of which exceeds one’s finite funds. So purchase wisely! Yes, I do have a few firearms with some “issues”, but these were not modified to deceive, etc. I purchased a deluxe Model 1886, with numerous features, in 95 % condition, except someone placed a period receiver sight on it in the 19-teen’s or 1920’s. I purchased at a price which reflects this modification, But this firearm has condition, and no other issues. This is about as far as I am willing to go these days dealing with guns with “issues”.
win4575 said
I have been gathering serial numbers on the model 1876 for the past several years. To date, I have approximately 4500 serial numbers for known guns. Of these guns, I have 19 that are recorded “with lid”. The lowest serial number I have “with lid”, is 405 and the highest one on my list “with lid”, is 8507. This of course is not the total number that are recorded in the warehouse ledgers “with lid”, these are the only ones I have found so far. I’m sure there are many more. Remember, my list contains only guns that exist today. In my opinion, this particular feature although interesting, is not what I would consider rare.
I sent you a pm win4575
Here are the pictures.
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
than
mark minnillo said
1873man said
Here are the pictures.
Bob
mark minnillo said
1873man said
Here are the pictures.
Bob
Thanks Bob I was having trouble adding pics.
mark,
I take it there are no other cuts on the bottom of the barrel besides the forearm and mag band?
Bob
WACA Life Member--- NRA Life Member---- Cody Firearms member since 1991 Researching the Winchester 1873's
Email: [email protected]
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