Log In
Members
Home
Add Reply
Add Topic
Offline
Thanks Bert – that’s the first time I’ve ever seen in print from Winchester that the M71 could be special ordered in .33. They make it sound like only a 20 inch version could be ordered in .33? Do all the known M71 .33’s have 20 inch barrels?
Bert H. said
Bill,
I encourage you to read my article discussing the Model 71 – Summer 2021 (winchestercollector.org)
Attached is a scanned copy of Winchester’s 1938 Salesman Catalog;
Bert
Bert, Outstanding. I read and abstracted your more recent article on the 71 but haven’t seen the earlier one you cite. I’ll certainly read it. If I had to discard every other Winchester I own, the 71 is the one I’d keep. It’s always seemed to me to be the summation of everything a Winchester lever action hunting rifle should be. I envy you your catalog library. Thanks, Bill
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Online
steve004 said
Thanks Bert – that’s the first time I’ve ever seen in print from Winchester that the M71 could be special ordered in .33. They make it sound like only a 20 inch version could be ordered in .33? Do all the known M71 .33’s have 20 inch barrels?
Steve,
That was simply poor sentence structure in the catalog. What it really means is that a Model 71 with a 20-inch barrel could be ordered, or a rifle in 33 WCF could be ordered. All (5) of the 33 WCF Model 71 rifles I have documented have a 24-inch barrel.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Very interesting! I knew there were special order M71’s out there in 45-70, but I thought them to be by request only. Sure never knew Winchester cataloged the 71 in 45-70, or especially in 33wcf! The 71 in 33wcf would easily be my Holy Grail of rifles, but if it came up I’d never be able to afford it, especially according to what that 45-70 just sold for!
M64lvr said
Very interesting! I knew there were special order M71’s out there in 45-70, but I thought them to be by request only. Sure never knew Winchester cataloged the 71 in 45-70, or especially in 33wcf! The 71 in 33wcf would easily be my Holy Grail of rifles, but if it came up I’d never be able to afford it, especially according to what that 45-70 just sold for!
Winchester never did catalog (or officially offer) the Model 71 in 45-70. The few rifles that were built in that caliber were strictly special order only. Conversely, the 33 WCF was listed as an optional (special) order caliber in the 1938 catalog.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
M64lvr said
Easy to understand why the 33wcf is so much discussed while so few used!
I don’t have any numbers but, in the last Model 1886 production years, before being replaced by the Model 71, the only caliber available was the .33 WCF, which I’ve assumed meant it was the most popular of the calibers for which the 1886 was chambered. Because it was the only smokeless 1886 cartridge, mine may be a misinterpretation of why it stood alone at the end.
If I recall correctly, when Winchester started narrowing available 1886 chamberings, they retained the 45-70, 45-90, 33 WCF, and maybe one other. Later, they cut all but the 33 but then added the 45-70 back for a time to meet perceived customer demand. Didn’t sell many, I guess, so they dropped it again and that left only the 33.
Now, what I don’t know is whether changing catalog availability was based on perceived popularity or just the number of suitably bored barrels WRA wanted to use up.
However, the Model 71 and its “new” .348 WCF cartridge looks (to me) like a “33 WCF Magnum” designed to appeal to 1886/33 users. WRA management must have thought the 33WCF was the cartridge to build on. They could have necked the same 50-110 case to 40 or 45 caliber instead of .348 but didn’t.
All the Model 71 advertising literature Bert has published here and in the Collector supports a conclusion that WRA management saw a medium caliber delivering high velocity was the future for heavy duty lever action rifles.
Working backward, I would guess that for several years of 1886 production, the .33 WCF chambering was its most popular. I need to go look at Bert’s projected 1886 production-by-caliber report to see if what I’m guessing is feasible. I don’t know whether he has been able to project production by caliber during specific years or blocks of years or whether the data would statistically permit it, to disclose trends..
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Zebulon said
M64lvr said
Easy to understand why the 33wcf is so much discussed while so few used!
I don’t have any numbers but, in the last Model 1886 production years, before being replaced by the Model 71, the only caliber available was the .33 WCF, which I’ve assumed meant it was the most popular of the calibers for which the 1886 was chambered. Because it was the only smokeless 1886 cartridge, mine may be a misinterpretation of why it stood alone at the end.
If I recall correctly, when Winchester started narrowing available 1886 chamberings, they retained the 45-70, 45-90, 33 WCF, and maybe one other. Later, they cut all but the 33 but then added the 45-70 back for a time to meet perceived customer demand. Didn’t sell many, I guess, so they dropped it again and that left only the 33.
caliber during specific years or blocks of years or whether the data would statistically permit it, to disclose trends..
Bill,
The 45-70 was never discontinued in the Model 1886. It was available to the bitter end of production. The highest confirmed serial number is 159996 and it was a 45-70 Rifle. While the 33 WCF was the most common cartridge in the later years of production, all of the older cartridges were still available if ordered. The recent article I wrote discussing the Model 1886 late production covers all of the calibers/cartridge found in the 146000 – 159996 serial range. The 33 WCF makes up 69.4% of all the Model 1886s manufactured in the late serial range.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert, thanks for the clarification. I’d read your article. I don’t question how many 1886 black powder chamberings were actually built and shipped or when. I rely on your published research.
Venturino had written all the black powder chamberings for the 1886 except for the 45/70 and 90 were “dropped” before the end of production.
I wonder if the difference has to do with semantics. Perhaps he meant “dropped from the catalog” rather than an order would be refused.
Bill
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Yes Thanks Bert! Hmmm, so there’s lot more 33wcf out there than I thought! My thoughts again, there sure ought to be? Lord what a fine cartridge! No doubt the 300 Savage did fill that need for a lotta people!
M64lvr said
Yes Thanks Bert! Hmmm, so there’s lot more 33wcf out there than I thought! My thoughts again, there sure ought to be? Lord what a fine cartridge! No doubt the 300 Savage did fill that need for a lotta people!
I think you’re right. At least there were a lot of sporting writers who used and recommended the .300 Savage for anything up to and including Ursus arctos! One of them, I believe it was Ben East, wrote a magazine piece titled something like Last Cartridge in the Rifle about a Polar bear hunt. The story has been re-published in various anthologies ever since.
East wounded a bear on the ice from some distance and it charged him, dying only a few feet away when struck by the last round in East’s magazine. At the beginning of the story, East had written he was armed for the hunt with a .300 Savage and thought it would be adequate for Polar bear, “although I would not think so today.”
From the early days of the 20th Century, the Savage 1899 got a lot of excellent press in the outdoor literature and I can’t recall any serious criticism of it. At the turn of the Century there was an enthusiasm for “modern” things and by the standards of the day, the 99 was very modern-looking. Sleek and mechanically reliable, when chambered for the .300 Savage cartridge it was powerful, coming pretty close to then current 30/06 velocities.
I think it ate into Winchester big game rifle sales seriously.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Zebulon said
Bert, thanks for the clarification. I’d read your article. I don’t question how many 1886 black powder chamberings were actually built and shipped or when. I rely on your published research.Venturino had written all the black powder chamberings for the 1886 except for the 45/70 and 90 were “dropped” before the end of production.
I wonder if the difference has to do with semantics. Perhaps he meant “dropped from the catalog” rather than an order would be refused.
Bill
Bill,
Nearly all of the late production 45-70 and 45-90 rifles were ELWs and with Nickel Steel (Smokeless) barrels. The other calibers/cartridges were “dropped” from the catalog in the latter years of production, but they could all be ordered if desired. Many of them (the 38-56, 40-65, 40-82, and 50 EX) were offered in smokeless if so ordered.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
So new to my prior thinking, in reality the 33wcf got out the gate quick, took a front in the race, going strong, then probably Win themselves took air out it’s sails with the 348 and Savage with the 99 in 300 Savage!
Makes sense, but still shame, cause I knew all along, after learning of it, looking at them near perfect Ballistics & Ft/lbs with a most desirable 200-220gr FN Bullet, minimum recoil=Ultimate Hunters Cartridge for any big game! Really caught my attention way back reading about Ben Lilly using it!
Way I hunt, the terrain & circumstances, it would be hard to beat!
45anything never raised my interest, for here, too much powder n lead per shot! I always thought the 40-72 very interesting, I guess ever since Townsend Whelen in Red Letter Days in British Columbia.
But now at 66 weakening eyes, I better go with my 270Win & Scope! But the 33wcf & it’s rifle are what always caught my love! Especially for here!
Late to the party here. I have to say that the 33 is a personal favorite of mine. But according the Madl and Hawkes research only 12,869 86’s were chambered in it, in a time frame of about 32 years. The 2 most popular chamberings, 45-70 and 40-82 hit 36102 and 30973 produced, respectively. Even my beloved 45-90 comes in at just under double at 23,197.
oldcrankyyankee said
Late to the party here. I have to say that the 33 is a personal favorite of mine. But according the Madl and Hawkes research only 12,869 86’s were chambered in it, in a time frame of about 32 years. The 2 most popular chamberings, 45-70 and 40-82 hit 36102 and 30973 produced, respectively. Even my beloved 45-90 comes in at just under double at 23,197.
Tom,
Keep in mind that John Madl and John Hawke’s research only included the rifles that could be lettered. In the non letterable range (146000+) we have documented in the survey a total of 1,630 guns (11.64% of the total 14,000), and the caliber numbers look like this…
As you can see, the 33 WCF makes up just 50.43% of the total we have surveyed. If that % number holds true for the entire 14,000 non-letterable Model 1886 population, you can add an additional 7,060 33 WCF rifles to the 12,869 that John & John surveyed in the factory ledger records at the CFM, bringing the total production to approximately 19,929.
For those that are interested, I recently created a separate survey specifically for the 33 WCF caliber Model 1886s. Currently, I have 1,378 of them documented in the 121533 – 159992 serial range. I would like to hear from all interested owners of a 33 WCF Winchester rifle.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
M64lvr said
Very interesting! I knew there were special order M71’s out there in 45-70, but I thought them to be by request only. Sure never knew Winchester cataloged the 71 in 45-70, or especially in 33wcf! The 71 in 33wcf would easily be my Holy Grail of rifles, but if it came up I’d never be able to afford it, especially according to what that 45-70 just sold for!
How about a M1886 SRC in .33 – that’s quite the holy grail in my book.
It’s enjoyable for me to see so much interest in and discussion of the .33 WCF. I’ve studied the .33 since I was a young boy (given it was my Dad’s first deer rifle) and it’s been fascinating to read information in this thread that I did not know. 
steve004 said
M64lvr said
Very interesting! I knew there were special order M71’s out there in 45-70, but I thought them to be by request only. Sure never knew Winchester cataloged the 71 in 45-70, or especially in 33wcf! The 71 in 33wcf would easily be my Holy Grail of rifles, but if it came up I’d never be able to afford it, especially according to what that 45-70 just sold for!
How about a M1886 SRC in .33 – that’s quite the holy grail in my book.
It’s enjoyable for me to see so much interest in and discussion of the .33 WCF. I’ve studied the .33 since I was a young boy (given it was my Dad’s first deer rifle) and it’s been fascinating to read information in this thread that I did not know.
Here is the current breakdown of the different variations surveyed thus far…and Yes, a 33 WCF SRC would be the “holy grail” !! When I reach 2,000 in the survey, I will create an extrapolation table to predict the estimated production number for each variant.
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
steve004 said
M64lvr said
Very interesting! I knew there were special order M71’s out there in 45-70, but I thought them to be by request only. Sure never knew Winchester cataloged the 71 in 45-70, or especially in 33wcf! The 71 in 33wcf would easily be my Holy Grail of rifles, but if it came up I’d never be able to afford it, especially according to what that 45-70 just sold for!
How about a M1886 SRC in .33 – that’s quite the holy grail in my book.
It’s enjoyable for me to see so much interest in and discussion of the .33 WCF. I’ve studied the .33 since I was a young boy (given it was my Dad’s first deer rifle) and it’s been fascinating to read information in this thread that I did not know.
Well not saying I wouldn’t be happy with one, especially since I have none! But full length rifle is my idea of what I’d prefer for sure, 24″-26″. But I think the SRC is ?22″, that’s OK by me also! I should’ve got on this year’s ago, looked for me one. Now I doubt I’d put $ in it, my iron sights eyes about done for!
Bert all that data, different configurations, DOM, etc, I’d get dog drunk dizzy, throw it in air, quit!
M64lvr said
Bert all that data, different configurations, DOM, etc, I’d get dog drunk dizzy, throw it in air, quit!
I am a long time Excel Spreadsheet creator/user (Guru) and I have always had a keen interest and ability in statistics & math. It is actually relatively simple for me to assemble and correlate all of the information in my research surveys. The real work is finding the guns!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Bert H. said
oldcrankyyankee said
Late to the party here. I have to say that the 33 is a personal favorite of mine. But according the Madl and Hawkes research only 12,869 86’s were chambered in it, in a time frame of about 32 years. The 2 most popular chamberings, 45-70 and 40-82 hit 36102 and 30973 produced, respectively. Even my beloved 45-90 comes in at just under double at 23,197.
Tom,
Keep in mind that John Madl and John Hawke’s research only included the rifles that could be lettered. In the non letterable range (146000+) we have documented in the survey a total of 1,630 guns (11.64% of the total 14,000), and the caliber numbers look like this…
As you can see, the 33 WCF makes up just 50.43% of the total we have surveyed. If that % number holds true for the entire 14,000 non-letterable Model 1886 population, you can add an additional 7,060 33 WCF rifles to the 12,869 that John & John surveyed in the factory ledger records at the CFM, bringing the total production to approximately 19,929.
For those that are interested, I recently created a separate survey specifically for the 33 WCF caliber Model 1886s. Currently, I have 1,378 of them documented in the 121533 – 159992 serial range. I would like to hear from all interested owners of a 33 WCF Winchester rifle.
Bert
Bert, again you have put me in my place. I totally spaced it on those numbers and on the fact Madl and Hawk were working with the known ledgers. But I am surprised at the potential number of 33’s that could have been produced.
As I stated before it is my next favorite caliber, so given that your now building another spread sheet on just them, I would like to introduce these 2. If you don’t already have them. If you do, ehh, I tried.
1 Guest(s)
