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March 20, 2009
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I know that we have all heard of this “seller” (real adjective would most likely be auto deleted) before. He has been selling yet “another fine offering from this fabulous collection!” for years!!! He has 4 new Model 61 rifles listed of which three has the coveted “STONE MINT condition and LOOKS UNFIRED!” included several times in their descriptions and all four of them amazingly have wonderful original boxes and paper work included with them. How does everyone who just happens to have such a rifle and box always get them out to California to sell by this guy??? The rifles are:
SN 75653 OB Short only W/Box https://www.gunbroker.com/item/796482527
SN 6533 OB Short only. Now with a box and extras that suddenly were unearthed in the last few months since it was sold on Guns International by Schulthies Guns, in NY. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/79652238
SN 299710 Win Mag. Now with a box and extras that suddenly were unearthed in the last few months since it was sold on Guns International by Fox River Sporting in NY. https://www.gunbroker.com/item/796517226
SN 262910 RB LR Shot Only W/Box https://www.gunbroker.com/item/796504617
The boxes are certainly fake. The middle two rifles match the configuration as they were previously listed. Just beware out there.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
December 23, 2012
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You suppose his friends bid them up? terry
July 8, 2012
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Wow, they didn’t waste any time listing that 61 magnum. It’s still listed on GI for $1,895. Wonder how long it took them to manufacture the box and paperwork.
Good work Michael.
Al
March 20, 2009
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tionesta1 said
Wow, they didn’t waste any time listing that 61 magnum. It’s still listed on GI for $1,895. Wonder how long it took them to manufacture the box and paperwork.Good work Michael.
Al
Al,
He most likely has a room full of created boxes that then only need the end label with the now correct serial number that amazingly matches the stone mint (what a stupid adjective that is) rifle now inside the box.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
November 7, 2015
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Rather wordy description for someone who supposedly wants to let the photos do the talking. “Stone mint” indeed, whatever that means.
Mike
April 15, 2005
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TXGunNut said
Rather wordy description for someone who supposedly wants to let the photos do the talking. “Stone mint” indeed, whatever that means.Mike
I too detest the useless adjectives used to describe a gun’s condition. Quite frankly, when terms like “stone”, “drippy” etc. are used, my mind immediately assumes that I am dealing with a “Snake Oil” salesman (huckster). First, firearms are not “minted”. Instead, they are manufactured and assembled. Accordingly, an individual firearm is either in “like new” or “nearly new” condition, or is most frequently something less.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
March 20, 2009
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Bert H. said
I too detest the useless adjectives used to describe a gun’s condition. Quite frankly, when terms like “stone”, “drippy” etc. are used, my mind immediately assumes that I am dealing with a “Snake Oil” salesman (huckster). First, firearms are not “minted”. Instead, they are manufactured and assembled. Accordingly, an individual firearm is either in “like new” or “nearly new” condition, or is most frequently something less.
Bert
Oh come on Bert. “Drippy mint” is a very appropriate and useful term. It is most often used around the middle of March when people are consuming large quantities of green colored alcoholic beverages in honor of a certain Irish saint. The $5.49 bottle of select Creme de Menthe is fumbled on the stone counter top and then that green liquid stuff falling off the edge onto the floor is…. you guessed it “drippy mint!!!!
Ta Da
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Great work Michael !!!! This is Tom from Fox River Sporting in NY. As you pointed out one of those guns was mine. I believe it was you that sent me the email inquiry on it yesterday as I failed to mark my listing on GI “sold”, thank you. I just checked my records and the gun was delivered to the CA buyer on Jan 9th! They wasted no time getting it relisted with the bogus stuff. I don’t know if the man that I sold the rifle (only the rifle) to is the one pulling the fraudulent BS or he is just selling to the guy looking for high condition stuff. Interestingly the town address for the BSer is not the same town that I shipped to. This man who bought from me was a repeat high condition Winchester customer.
Great catch and I am glad that you brought it to all of our attentions.
Tom
February 19, 2007
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By the way, I am a WACA member. I see that I was not logged in and labled as GUEST on my first post.
Tom Wyraz Fox River Sporting
IN GOD WE TRUST
April 15, 2005
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Tom,
The buyer’s address you shipped it to is just a short distance from the seller’s address… they are in cahoots together to intentionally defraud collectors.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
February 19, 2007
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Thanks Bert, rest assured that he and I will be doing no more business together.
IN GOD WE TRUST
July 8, 2012
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Someone ought to send “Selling Dads Old Guns” the GI listing, asking them how is it that the model 61 all of a sudden grew a box and paperwork, and now is more than double the price they paid.
What a fraud.
Al
December 23, 2012
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makes you wonder just how many faked rifles are out there, nothing for the uninformed to buying! terry
April 15, 2005
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Al,
That would be a waste of time… the seller could care less. The more appropriate thing to do is to report his auction to GB as Fraudulent, providing them with the link to the Guns International list/sale, a specifically pointing out that the rifle was not in a “factory” box or with all of the fake stuff added to it.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 8, 2011
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Is this seller still active?
November 1, 2013
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sb said
Is this seller still active?
His prevarications became so notorious that he changed the name of his crooked operation. I can’t remember the new name, but his lies & BS remained the same.
February 9, 2022
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Looks like all the auctions are taken down now! This is exactly the kind of shady activity that makes a new collector like me incredibly wary. And not knowing what I don;t know I’m paranoid to make any purchases at all!!
November 7, 2015
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Matt H. said
Looks like all the auctions are taken down now! This is exactly the kind of shady activity that makes a new collector like me incredibly wary. And not knowing what I don;t know I’m paranoid to make any purchases at all!!
Buyer beware, indeed, Matt. I suppose one way of looking at the perils of collecting is that if it was easy, anyone could do it. Look at lots of guns, read lots of books, listen to lots of collectors, listen to that little voice in your head. Knowledge is power, or in this case protection.
Mike
November 1, 2013
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TXGunNut said
I suppose one way of looking at the perils of collecting is that if it was easy, anyone could do it.
Anyone CAN do it, with deep enough pockets. Proven on GB & other auction sites everyday.
November 7, 2015
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clarence said
TXGunNut said
I suppose one way of looking at the perils of collecting is that if it was easy, anyone could do it.
Anyone CAN do it, with deep enough pockets. Proven on GB & other auction sites everyday.
I’m not sure what to call these well-heeled buyers but “collector” is not the term that comes to mind. They’ve changed the market much like a few investors can manipulate the market conditions for other commodities. If you don’t know what happens after the market manipulators drive up the prices you may want to steer clear of the high end guns for awhile.
Mike
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