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You may have heard the old 45 Gov’t “kills on both ends.” There’s a third end, these days: the checkout register.
If I am not mistaken, Remington Ammunition and Federal Cartridge now have a common parent, Big Green’s ammunition operation having been severed and sold out of bankruptcy.
It may be industry malarkey but I’ve heard the two brands do not intend to compete. Supposedly, Federal will make the high end wonder projectile Safari Grade stuff and Remington will supply Bubba with his “deer bullets.”
When Bubba gets a load of current deer bullet pricing, e.g. THREE AND A HALF DOLLARS for a single round of 45/70 Core-Lokt, the effluent will hit the impeller.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015
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Ouch! For the record the Core-Lokt is a good bullet, just not as sexy as some of the trendy stuff. I’ve bought a few boxes just like that one for the brass, maybe $20/box. Good thing I generally pour my own.
Mike
I agree, I cast and load all my BPCR 45-70 rounds. Of course I only shoot vintage Trapdoors and a Pedersoli Sharps.
I’ve basically been immune to the cost of factory ammunition for four decades. As I write this, that immunity feels sweeter than ever.
I suppose if Bubba only shoots his rifle when he shoots at a big game animal, the cost involved is not significant. I read a hunting story once where an old-timer up in Canada shot a caribou ever year and one box of cartridges lasted exactly 20 years – 20 caribou. But, if you like to do some shooting, how do you stand the emotional pain of every shot piercing your paper target costing three and one-half dollars???
Online
I’m shocked at how expensive ammunition prices have become. I enjoy reloading all of my ammo except for .22 RF. I also enjoy casting for many of my calibers.
I like to think that I am saving money but when one factors in the cost of reloading dies as well as all the other accoutrements that go along with the process, I wonder what the final cost per round ends up being. In the end, it would be hard pressed to find some hobby that doesn’t cost…….. maybe making paper dolls.
November 7, 2015
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As Kevin points out most of us have not saved any money by reloading. It is theoretically possible but I think the odds at Powerball are more favorable. I recently inventoried my loading room and the results were interesting. The only factors that support the supposed economy of my reloading activity are the prices I paid for powder and primers several years ago and the hundreds of thousands of rounds loaded and fired in competition. I’d never be able to justify my loading operation with my current reloading activities but loading these old hyphenated rounds and other historic ammunition is a lot more fun than cranking out hundreds of .38 Special rounds every week along with several thousand .45ACP rounds every year. Case in point the ammunition in the OP is a bit anemic unless you are shooting an old Trapdoor. I wanted to use my 45-70 to hunt big Texas hogs and wanted a round that would flatten one at any reasonable angle. The 45-70 is the round that got me started casting bullets, I spent a few hundred dollars buying cast bullets my rifle didn’t like. I “saved” money by getting into pouring my own and thousands of dollars later I can cast almost any bullet I need and load for every centerfire rifle I own. During my inventory I found a partial bag of the bullets used in the ammo in the OP and another bag of the RP 300 grain bullets for the same cartridge. Good bullets!
Even at today’s prices I’d be money ahead if I’d never gotten into loading for rifles. It’s an affliction that now complements my Winchester collecting activities but it isn’t cheap. OTOH Johnny Morris has built an empire helping people dispose of discretionary budgets much larger than mine.
Mike
I started re-loading my ammunition in the 1970’s. I am quite certain I have not saved much, if any, money doing so. However, I have been able to shoot ammunition that has been much more accurate than the average box of factory ammo, and I have been able to shoot much more often, for the dollars actually spent, and with ammunition tailored for each individual firearm. I was also able to make ammo that has not been available “on the shelf” of my local retail establishments during my lifetime (40-60, 40-65, 40-82 among others.) It’s never really been about economy for me. It has been a labor of love.
BRP
What you all fail to realise is this is a means of CONTROL. Plenty of lead out there, should be ample brass, primers, gunpowder…
By making certain rounds obsolete and making the availability of components limited, it’s a means of gun control. I think the powers that be have determined that controlling firearms availability is too difficult to pursue, so own as many firearms as you like. However, the availability of ammunition, and, to a lesser degree, components, is limited, and, when there is availability, simple supply and demand, if not outright control/market manipulation will make it cost dearly to fire anything.
The outlay to purchase moulds and components may well exceed the cost of buying manufactured ammunition, but some of that cost will be recovered through the eventual resale of moulds and especially unavailable brass you have stockpiled for a profit. One could also cast a large number of bullets and sell those.
Blue Ridge Parson said
I started re-loading my ammunition in the 1970’s. I am quite certain I have not saved much, if any, money doing so. However, I have been able to shoot ammunition that has been much more accurate than the average box of factory ammo, and I have been able to shoot much more often, for the dollars actually spent, and with ammunition tailored for each individual firearm. I was also able to make ammo that has not been available “on the shelf” of my local retail establishments during my lifetime (40-60, 40-65, 40-82 among others.) It’s never really been about economy for me. It has been a labor of love.BRP
Pretty much the same for me too. I have been buying brass and loading dies for calibers I don’t even own. I don’t shoot my collector guns that often and I love to load and shoot. That is one reason I shoot a modern target rifle. But, believe me the cost of the equipment is outrageous. The wait time on tools, parts and components is terrible. It is not unusual to have to wait a year for some things. I just started a new build. I am going to build a Wildcat 284 Win. I was very lucky to find a barrel blank and an action. It seems an unfinished stock is only a couple month wait. Once all 3 of these come together the guy that will chamber the barrel will bed the action and fine fit the stock for assembly. Like all good gunsmiths he has a long wait list. I have not even asked.
This group of people complain all the time about what’s going on. Then I tell them find ammo, dies, bullets or parts for something that is over a 100 years old. They have no idea.
To be truthful, I bought this 20 round box of 45-70 for a very limited purpose – to test fire the rifle I bought at the same time. I gave to my late best friend and hunting partner my 45 Govt die set years ago and I didn’t want to buy another set just to load a few rounds.
Miroku has been building excellent Model 1886 rifles and carbines for Browning and USRAC since the Nineteen Eighties, mostly in 45-70 but occasionally in 45-90. What almost all the rifles have in common are a rifle [crescent] buttplate and a rather heavy contour octagonal barrel. Handsome but ungainly. I have a 24″ pistol gripped “deluxe” in 45-90 and like it but it is a chore to tote around.
However, back in 2000 and again about 2012, USRAC ordered a couple of short runs of the 1886 Extra Light style, the kind Elmer Keith favored, with shotgun buttplate, truncated magazine, 22″ rapid taper round barrel, straight grip and slender forearm. Offered only in 45-70, both runs sold out quickly. They are seen from time to time on the used racks. Most are well cared for.
In a previous post, one concerning the 375 H&H 1980 Model 70 I picked up at Gunmaster several weeks ago, I mentioned I had handled one of these Extra Light rifles in mint condition and almost bought it but took the 375 home instead.
Since then, I’ve been laying in dies and components to load .33 WCF ammunition for an eventual 1886 I don’t have but intend to acquire, when there’s enough in the piggy bank for a 95% original 1886 with a bore good enough to shoot cast lead accurately. Those are seldom and costly, particularly because I will have to buy from a dealer whose reputation I can trust. I can’t travel to shows right now.
So, after doing some checking around, I’ve figured out I can rebarrel the Extra Light to .33 WCF, using the existing barrel as a template for contour, headspacing and threading, without giving Mr Pig a hernia, including the cost of the Extra Light that was still on the shelf. The rear sight seat can be omitted, saving a couple of gunsmith bucks.
Obviously this will take some time but should prove interesting.
The photos illustrate the same model as mine. The one shown is for sale at Tyler Gunworks, which has a Web store too. 
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
I’ve been casting my own 45-70 bullets for the past ten years or so from used wheel weights. Reloading my own is cheap like borscht and I highly recommend it.
FAMOUS LAST WORDS:
“So, after doing some checking around, I’ve figured out I can rebarrel the Extra Light to .33 WCF, using the existing barrel as a template for contour, headspacing and threading, without giving Mr Pig a hernia, including the cost of the Extra Light that was still on the shelf. The rear sight seat can be omitted, saving a couple of gunsmith bucks.”
Sometimes my brain malfunctions and I think I’m back in the Nineteen Fifties, when there were gunsmiths available to do the sort of work mentioned above, for fees not resembling the national debt.
It is to laugh.
The illusion has passed and my .33 WCF air castle has deflated, leaving me with a nice USRAC 1886 Extra Light, 200 Starline 45-70 cases coming soon, a Redding 3-die competition 45-70 set coming probably next week, and a need for some 300 grain .458 “deer bullets.”
Never mind.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015
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Hard to beat a good 45-70, Bill. I’m guessing you learned this barrel would cost as much as a decent 1886 that left the factory with the desired barrel. Let me know how those Redding dies work for you. I have a couple of other sets but generally use a Lyman .45 neck sizer, expander and crimp die. I don’t know if Big Green is still offering the 300 gr bullet I remember and I no longer have any in my stash. They don’t list it on their website and they don’t seem to offer the new Core-Lokt Tipped bullet as a component. Smallest mould I have is the 330 gr Gould (Lyman 457122) bullet.
Mike
On a side note Bill, Tyler at TGW is a great dude. He helped me re-sell a pair of his own custom revolvers when my uncle passed…wouldn’t hesitate to do business with him again.
November 7, 2015
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mrcvs said
What you all fail to realise is this is a means of CONTROL. Plenty of lead out there, should be ample brass, primers, gunpowder…By making certain rounds obsolete and making the availability of components limited, it’s a means of gun control. I think the powers that be have determined that controlling firearms availability is too difficult to pursue, so own as many firearms as you like. However, the availability of ammunition, and, to a lesser degree, components, is limited, and, when there is availability, simple supply and demand, if not outright control/market manipulation will make it cost dearly to fire anything.
The outlay to purchase moulds and components may well exceed the cost of buying manufactured ammunition, but some of that cost will be recovered through the eventual resale of moulds and especially unavailable brass you have stockpiled for a profit. One could also cast a large number of bullets and sell those.
Ian-
The issue I have with your “control” theory is that folks who misuse firearms generally use ammo that is easily found on the shelf of almost every store that sells ammunition. Ammunition factories are running at or near capacity making popular ammunition and shutting a profitable line down to make ammunition they don’t get much call for makes little sense for a corporation trying to please shareholders, not collectors.
Yes, the “powers that be” would love to control the public’s ammo supply but the reports I get is that the manufacturers are making and selling all the ammo they can make and have even built some new plants to try to answer the demand. The component shortage story is much like the ammunition situation, they are more interested in making a profit than supplying a small niche market.
Mike
TXGunNut said
mrcvs said
What you all fail to realise is this is a means of CONTROL. Plenty of lead out there, should be ample brass, primers, gunpowder…
By making certain rounds obsolete and making the availability of components limited, it’s a means of gun control. I think the powers that be have determined that controlling firearms availability is too difficult to pursue, so own as many firearms as you like. However, the availability of ammunition, and, to a lesser degree, components, is limited, and, when there is availability, simple supply and demand, if not outright control/market manipulation will make it cost dearly to fire anything.
The outlay to purchase moulds and components may well exceed the cost of buying manufactured ammunition, but some of that cost will be recovered through the eventual resale of moulds and especially unavailable brass you have stockpiled for a profit. One could also cast a large number of bullets and sell those.
Ian-
The issue I have with your “control” theory is that folks who misuse firearms generally use ammo that is easily found on the shelf of almost every store that sells ammunition. Ammunition factories are running at or near capacity making popular ammunition and shutting a profitable line down to make ammunition they don’t get much call for makes little sense for a corporation trying to please shareholders, not collectors.
Yes, the “powers that be” would love to control the public’s ammo supply but the reports I get is that the manufacturers are making and selling all the ammo they can make and have even built some new plants to try to answer the demand. The component shortage story is much like the ammunition situation, they are more interested in making a profit than supplying a small niche market.
Mike
You are probably correct, it just feels this way, however.
A firearm without available ammunition becomes a very expensive paperweight, however.
TXGunNut said
Hard to beat a good 45-70, Bill. I’m guessing you learned this barrel would cost as much as a decent 1886 that left the factory with the desired barrel. Let me know how those Redding dies work for you. I have a couple of other sets but generally use a Lyman .45 neck sizer, expander and crimp die. I don’t know if Big Green is still offering the 300 gr bullet I remember and I no longer have any in my stash. They don’t list it on their website and they don’t seem to offer the new Core-Lokt Tipped bullet as a component. Smallest mould I have is the 330 gr Gould (Lyman 457122) bullet.
Mike
Actually, there are no barrelmakers I could find willing to fit a barrel to ANY lever action rifle, regardless of cost. Or one that would replicate a particular contour. Never got as far as cost. What I would need to do is engage a qualified custom gunmaker to obtain a blank, contour, thread and chamber the barrel, and then fit and headspace and proof it. At a guess, that would run a tab north of $2500 and take a busy gunsmith [the good ones are all busy] six months to a year.
I didn’t fully explore relining after I discovered I’d failed to pull the trigger on the .33 die order I’d put in my Graf cart. To my surprise. At that point, my Midsouth order was already on its way but it consisted of 200 45-70 Starline Brass I still wanted and only a Lee .33 Factory Crimp Die, which I could fade.
Murphy, my personal advisor, had taken a personal day and left Seamus his benign cousin to dwell on my shoulder and whisper in my ear, “Spalpeen, tha Fates hev given ye anither chance. Take it!” So I canceled the .33 die order and browsed their online catalog for some 45-70 dies.
I have and use RCBS, Hornady, Lyman, and Lee dies but, when they’re available, I prefer Redding for their fit and finish. It happened that Graf had a single 45-70 set of Redding competition dies left that they had put on sale, a 3-die set with micrometer seating, in my case something of a luxury, but Seamus told me to grab it.
There are several cast lead suppliers online, e.g. Rimrock, that can furnish 300 grain .458 flatnose bullets. Some will even offer a small range of diameters. I’ll start with some those and the 405 grain supply I’ve already got on hand. I’m not trying to prove anything so I’ll be loading to black powder velocities.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
November 7, 2015
Offline
Bill-
I seem to have mostly RCBS die sets but spend the few extra bucks on Redding dies when available. I have a set of the RCBS Competition dies and like some of the features but no longer load that cartridge (22-250). Quite frankly I thought I had given it away but it surfaced during my inventory. Very early in my reloading career I purchased and was very disappointed by a set of Lyman dies. I use many other individual Lyman dies and tools but have never purchased another set. Come to think of it, I haven’t seen a set of Lyman dies available for awhile. I like Lee die sets but my 45-70 and 30-06 Hornady die sets were a disappointment. I’m glad I purchased several sets of RCBS Cowboy dies as it seems they no longer offer them. Maybe you should snag that set of .33 dies while you can. They may not be available when your .33 comes along.
Mike
It may be my imagination but RCBS has gone down in customer service ever since the Speer family cashed out. They’ve quit doing custom work.
My first reloading tool was a Lee Loader, followed by two more Lee Loaders. Some years later I stepped up to an RCBS Rockchucker kit and still have it. Sometime in the late Eighties I decided to experiment with a Hornady progressive press, a Projector. Which I have but seldom use. I can’t remember what disks I have for it but I think 38/357, 44 Magnum, and 45 ACP. Once I’ve gone through all the 357 loaded ammo on hand, I’ll probably leave it set up for that.
NEWS FLASH. UPS just delivered my Midsouth order of 45-70 brass. The rest of the order was just some case lube. The Lee .33 FCD was part of the Graf canceled order.
As Eddie Murphy would say, I X-scaped completely. I’ve been getting up at 5 am for early appointments several times a week and my usual 2am bedtime requires adjustment. I’m afraid some night I’ll buy the Golden Gate Bridge and AMEX won’t blink.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
Not that I’ve ever asked RCBS to do any custom work but it was always a comfort to know, if I needed forming dies to convert 8×57 cases to 6.8mm Symbionese Mauser, they would make up a set for me, albeit at a sinus-clearing price.
- Bill
WACA # 65205; life member, NRA; member, TGCA; member, TSRA; amateur preservationist
"I have seen wicked men and fools, a great many of both, and I believe they both get paid in the end, but the fools first." -- David Balfour, narrator and protagonist of the novel, Kidnapped, by Robert Louis Stevenson.
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