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November 5, 2014
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Hi All-
I do not normally post about my various acquisitions, but I have a question to ask… 
My latest “project” is to try and save Model 70 s/n 12. This rifle had apparently been in residing in Oak Harbor WA since 1937, having been ordered by a gunsmith there and still in the possession of his family. It’s definitely a “work in progress”… The good news is that the barreled action is in remarkably good shape for 89 years with no added holes in the bridge or for a side mount and very good original blue finish. The bad news is that the stock is an unrecoverable disaster; sanded smooth, reshaped fore end, and added recoil pad. Definitely a “working gun” during its lifetime… Along the line is also acquired a Stith scope mount and a Tilden safety.
I’ve put it into a “loaner” stock that isn’t quite right insofar as exactly matching my preconceived notion of what a 1936 M70 stock should look like, and replaced the sights and safety. If I ever get it “right” it will be a pretty decent “restoration” given that it’s not refinished…
With this “new” one, we’ve got M70 serial numbers 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 17 and 20 of the first (20) rifles recorded. All are 30 GOV’T’06 Standard rifles.
Now my QUESTION… Does anyone know the whereabouts of the pre-war M70 polishing room records? CFM only claims to have records for a narrow range of post-war serial numbers, and I do not believe that Pauline Muerrle has the pre-war records either. BUT… In Roger Rule’s book he has a table, allegedly derived from daily PR records, in which he gives specific dates and one representative S/N for each month of pre-64 M70 production. That suggests that such records exist(ed) at the time he reviewed them.
For example, M70 S/N 1 was applied on January 20, 1936. The next date Rule gives is S/N 40 on February 22, 1936. I doubt that the factory serialized just a couple M70 receivers a day between January 20th and February 22. They probably did a few “batches” of receivers during that interval. So without the PR logs, we can’t know when S/N 12 was applied. It may or may not be a “1st day” gun, but it’s certainly a “1st month” gun…
If anyone knows who has these records please let me know…
Thanks,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Hi Lou,
Probably a dumb question but…Why can’t we ask Roger? I thought he was still around and living in Hawaii?
There are other PR records I am looking for as well, maybe the same source will have a treasure trove.
Best Regards,
WACA Life Member #6284 - Specializing in Pre-64 Winchester .22 Rimfire
Lou,
The CFM does not have them, and as far as I know, Pauline Muerrle is the only other possible source.
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Good Stuff Lou!
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
November 5, 2014
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Thank you Jeff and Bert!!!
I was sort of hoping that there were additional PR data at CFM upon which the WACA DOM lookup tool was based. 
Or maybe a yet-to-be scanned box of factory records from Harry Chamberlain lying in a back storeroom. If anyone would have run across them, it would be one of you two Gents…
What Roger had told me was that the factory records he reviewed in the late 1970s were provided by Harry Chamberlain, and that he returned them to Harry after finishing with them. Unfortunately, Roger told me that he did not retain copies… I will ask Pauline just in case, but IIRC she doesn’t have pre-war PR records…
An aside is that the few and fragmentary documents on M70 production that have been scanned (available via the on-line MS20 collection of the McCracken Library) consist of annual summative reports, presumably prepared for various executives. Some are “Yearly Net Orders Received”, some are “Rifles Manufactured”, some are “Rifles Shipped”… For the few years where all three sets of figures exist, from the late 1930s to pre-war 1940s, none of the numbers agree. Some aren’t even close… Makes sense, since orders, manufacturing and shipping are three different things.
But it causes me to take all of the information we have, from George Madis through Roger Rule, with a grain of salt…
One of the most oft repeated claims, from Madis’ work, is that (19) M70s were built in 1935. Which is hard to accept given that the PR logs reviewed by Rule showed the first production receiver to have been serialized on January 20, 1936… 
It happens that the document Madis used (he didn’t cite sources) does exist in Cody, and it clearly states that Winchester had received (19) orders for M70s in 1935… This makes sense b/c the M70 design was ready to be put into production in 1935 but was delayed for a year due to the lingering Depression and a surplus of unsold M54s in inventory… It would have been known to some people in the business in 1935 that the “improved” M70 was going to be introduced.
So Mr. F.A. Horn, a gunsmith in Washington State, may indeed have placed one of those first (19) orders for a M70 (unknowable), but S/N 12 wasn’t manufactured until 1936 and probably not shipped until January 1937, the official release date for the M70.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Hi Louis, I saw that gun for sale on Guns International a little while ago. The price was pretty steep, and like you stated it needed some to restore it back to being period correct. But, you don’t see a early serial number like that very often for sale. So, I can see the attraction for the advance collector. Good luck with your endeavor. I will say that it looks a lot better now than when I first saw it. Did you see the Model 70 .300 Savage that was on Guns International. It was kind of a train wreck. The barrel was reblued, but the barrel markings looked correct. I think that it was listed at $1,600.
November 7, 2015
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Lou-
One clue to Rule’s sources can be found by comparing his Table 2-2 to Madis’s Dates of Manufacture (P635 in my copy). I’ve always suspected Madis had records we may never know about. If Pauline Muerrle doesn’t have the records you seek she may know where to find them. I agree that Rule’s table 2-1 seems to be taken from polishing room books.
Mike
November 5, 2014
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Hi Bob-
FWIW… I didn’t pay the “asking price” for the gun… Made an “offer”… But it was still a lot of $$ for basically a barreled action.
I wouldn’t normally fool with a pre-war 30 GOV’T’06 standard rifle like this except for the serial number… I think it will be a decent “restoration” when I’m done, since the original metal finishes are pretty good and it’s not full of holes, but as you point out it will never be “original” again!!!
I find it interesting to consider where these early M70s got sent. S/N 1, discussed in an American Rifleman article, was sold by a Hardware store in Durango CO in 1937. S/N 2, as documented by Rule and Bob Porter, was in the hands of Ethel Lied in Reamstown PA, but we don’t know where it was originally sold. S/N 4 is the one pictured in the Model 70 “Green Brochure” but its subsequent fate is unknown. It’s not on the current CFM inventory so the factory probably didn’t keep it… S/N 6 was in the Yearout collection, so might have been found in Montana, but we don’t know. S/Ns 10 and 11 were sold by White’s Hardware in Boise ID, reportedly in 1936, as documented by WACA. S/N 12 was ordered by F.A. Horn a gunsmith in Oak Harbor WA. I’m not aware of the origins of the any of the other first (20) M70s, they were seen/recorded at various gun shows over the years…
But I get the sense that Winchester might have shipped much of the first batch of M70s out West…
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis, Was Model 70 S/N 6 destroyed in the Yearout fire like Model 54 S/N 2 was which was also a .30Gov’t06?
November 5, 2014
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Hi Bob-
No it was not… I hear it’s going to be at the Cody show in July… I think I’m going to carry the wreckage of my S/N 12 out there just to compare the two…
Story was that after the fire, many of the surviving high end guns from the Yearout collection went through Julia’s auction. M70 S/N 6 wasn’t considered “important” enough for that route and it was sold via a gun shop in, I think, Great Falls MT. The individual who bought it stuck it in his safe and never looked at it. Eventually he took it back to the same shop, where it was found on the used gun rack a few years ago by a WACA Member, who is the current owner.
The rifle looks pretty intact from the pics I’ve seen. It carries a Noske side mount that’s probably been on it since 1937. You can see a little bit of the mount base in the photo of the serial number in Rule’s book. Matt told me he plans to bring the gun to the show and I look forward to seeing it…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Louis, Thanks for the information. That would be a excellent comparison. Since serial number 6, and serial number 12 may very well have been made on the same Day! Are you planning on going to the Cleveland Show in September? I plan on being there. It would be nice to meet up then.
Bo,
I can agree with you. Great information.
Louis, it would be great if you could make the September show! Many of us would like to try to get together!
Anthony
November 5, 2014
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Hi Guys-
Eureka!!! Pauline is “DA’ MAN”!!! She does have M70 records covering that period.
I’d suggest anyone with a similar question to mine ask her first. Getting a SNA date is a very reasonable $15 or $25 with a letter on her letterhead. I’m getting a letter to keep with the rifle…
Model 70 s/n 12 was indeed stamped on January 20, 1936. First day of M70 serialization. Pauline was also able to tell me the total number of M70s serialized that day.
I am looking into attending the OGCA September Show. I am not (as yet) an OGCA member, but I know a fair number of members who may be in attendance. Cleveland is a lot easier for me to get to than Cody!!!
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Lou,
Can you tell us what specific range of serial numbers that she has the PR records for?
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
November 5, 2014
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Hi Bert-
Honestly, I do not know and did not ask… Pauline has been VERY good to me over the years and it’s really none of my business…
She might want to put that info on her website (for ALL the Models she has info about). But it’s her call… If I had those records I think I would, just b/c I’m a detail Geek who wouldn’t like to address queries I couldn’t answer…
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
Lou, doesn’t get much better than ‘a first day Model 70’
“If you can’t convince them, confuse them”
President Harry S. Truman
November 5, 2014
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To kind of follow up on Bert’s query, and for those (few) who may not know that Pauline Muerrle has SNA data on several Winchester Models, I’m attaching a screenshot from her website, paulinemuerrle.com. “C” for complete and “P” for partial records.
So if CFM doesn’t have it, it’s worth trying Pauline. Like Bert, I think it would be nice if she added the actual serial number ranges for the “P” records to her website.
Best,
Lou
WACA 9519; Studying Pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters
I will be at the September show in Cleveland and would love to meet any member who plans on attending.
Al
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