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I received an email with this image and the owner asking if I knew what it might be. It looks familiar but I can not find any reference to it in my notes. Any ideas? Any additional photos of one?
Thanks
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Can you identify the proof stamps on the barrel and receiver?
I don’t recognize them.
Roger B
Roger Baker said
Can you identify the proof stamps on the barrel and receiver?I don’t recognize them.
Roger B
Roger,
They are German proofs.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
November 7, 2015
Offline
Any thoughts on how the German proofs and the above referenced stamp may be related, Michael?
TXGunNut said
Any thoughts on how the German proofs and the above referenced stamp may be related, Michael?
Part of that is easy. Stef lives in Germany if my memory is correct so if he finds a rifle near him it will most likely be German proofed. Now, if I had any idea what the other mark was then there may be more to the relationship!
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
November 7, 2015
Offline
Was hoping it might provide a clue. Seems exported guns sometimes have better documentation. Very interesting.
The german proof is not related to the unknown marking. The gun was reblued in 1972. The unknown stamp has therefore almost disappeared. The proof was stamped after the reblueing and is crisp.
Steff
Another discusion about the misterious stamp:
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31550
Steff
steff said
Another discusion about the misterious stamp:http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31550
Steff
Thanks for the link Steff. I have added a reply to it so maybe we can get one more point of data to add to this.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
November 7, 2015
Offline
A post on Paco Kelly’s forum mentioned that all guns with that mark were refinished and it looks like all exported at some time in their history. Is that true for the guns you’ve surveyed? It looks a bit like a certain paper company’s trademark, may be why some think it looks familiar.
Looks Japanese to me, but when I did a cursory look at their alphabet, I didn’t see an exact match. Maybe some other eastern mark? Totally out of my lane here, and just guessing since no one else has nailed it down.
Here is what I know so far.
All four of the rifles are 44 WCF saddle ring carbines. All are refinished. One has German proofs and two others are marked on the lower tang with importer stamps. The two are different import companies. All three known serial numbers are in the 865803 to 875582 range corresponding to 1919 production. Therefore, all four rifles went to Europe and the marking is somehow related to something there.
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
Updated again:
I sent an email to the owner of the rifle at the top of this post which prompted all of this effort and asked if his rifle had any “importers” stamp on the lower tang. Ta Da!! It in fact did, and was from Century Importers located in St Albans, Vermont. Then I started going through my spread sheet of rifles and decided to look at all the 44 WCF SRC’s for which I had noted “Refinished” and that were +/- 1919 DOM. Ta Da again!!! I found three more carbines with SN 809028, 817884, and 849014 (earliest DOM 1916) which all had the exact same mark, were all refinished, and two more of them had Century Importers stamped on the lower tang!
One might quickly guess that the mark is something generated by Century Importers but we have guns in Europe not imported by Century and another rifle with Northeast Inc stamped on the lower tang. So no common thread there. Maybe Century Importers can shed some light on the markings if they happen to have old records documenting their European purchases and have them catalogued by original manufacturer, model, and serial number. And are willing to help.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
November 7, 2015
Offline
Good job, seems you’re on the right track. Seems to me importers would generally buy from government agencies so meticulous records would be kept on both sides, question is whether or not they still exist….and of course your last point.
Could be a trademark of some sort used by the contractor that refinished the guns.
Could be a trademark of some sort used by the contractor that refinished the guns.
I have thought of that also. Hopefully Century Arms will come through with some information.
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
steff said
I see it on a M1892, SN 865803, but doesn’t knew what it is.
Steff
Steff any chance you can find out if the lower tang has an importers stamp located on it?
Thanks
Michael
Model 1892 / Model 61 Collector, Research, Valuation
No importer stamp.
My guess is that they are weapons from a source bought by a big European trader at the end of the sixties or early seventies. This dealer has restored the rifles and sold them in europe. Some were imported into the USA and received corresponding stamps. It would be interesting whether the American copies have European proof marks. The mark comes from the original source and has been weakened by the rework.
I guess this because there is such a case. Here are a series of M 1892 trapper carabines coming from the police of Santa Fe in Argentina and converted to .45 ACP. The gateway is documented with these weapons.
I hope you understand my bad english.
Steff
November 7, 2015
Offline
Here’s another one, a bit outside of the serial number range of the other rifles. Also a short rifle unlike the SRC’s discussed earlier.
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