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TXGunNut said
FWIW it appears to be drilled & tapped for tang sights. I agree with Don that it’s a step or two above a “shooter” but I shoot almost everything I own. IMHO as a newbie collector a carefully installed tang sight will not affect the value of this pretty rifle. Just make sure the base is radiused and put a coat of oil on everything. Save your original screws and rear sight in a bag marked with the SN of your rifle. I keep a few Brownell’s “fancy” sight blanks around for times like this, they look a lot classier than the Marbles blanks.
Thanks TX, can’t wait to get this. Now I have to figure out how to see if this is safe to shoot. There is a fantastic gunsmith ten minutes from work, a few guys working out of the old Ruger factory in Fairfield CT. I’ll bring it there and Mitch will tell me if it’s safe to shoot. I will contemplate putting on a set of tang sights, if only just to see how I like them over the current set up. I am not sure this is an all original piece, the description does not specifically say that while other auctions specifically mentioned ‘all original’. For me it makes no difference, this will be my regular shooter. Glad it has swivels, even if they were put on later, as Don mentioned above.
I have been in WACA for only a few years and am in the “shooter” part of the hobby rather than a Collector. I have found the Members to be extremely helpful and tolerant of my many questions, whether they be of a technical nature or more of an “idle curiosity” type.
Just thought I’d give another “Thanks” to all the WACA Forumers.
Bruce
Looks like a few sellers did not accept the hammer price on some of the rifles from the James Julia auction. Any thoughts on this one? Any red flags, or is it too hard to tell from the pictures? Advice much appreciated!
http://jamesdjulia.com/item/1062-396/
RARE AND VERY FINE SPECIAL ORDER DELUXE WINCHESTER 1886 LEVER ACTION RIFLE WITH 30″ BARREL.
SN 19401. Cal. 45-70. Very fine deluxe ’86 with rare special order 30″ oct bbl, full magazine, Lyman “certifiable antique ivory” bead hunting front sight and tang sight, 1886 and 1000yd ladder sight is also added. Mounted with nicely figured XX American walnut with H-style checkered forearm, checkered pistol grip buttstock with black insert, crescent buttplate. Left side of lower tang, under the wood is marked with the assembly number “40” & “XX”. Matching assembly number “40” is also found in top tang channel of buttstock. Buttplate was not removed but is no doubt orig. This rifle, based on factory letter, was received and shipped on June 22, 1888; repaired and returned December 28, 1895, matching configuration noted on factory letter 45-70 cal., 30″ oct bbl, set trigger, checkered stock, pistol grip and Lyman front and rear sights. This rare special order 30″ oct bbl seems heavier than standard and this gun weighs in at 10lbs 10oz. PROVENANCE: Ex-Robert Nichols Collection, 1978; Ex-Jay Lyndes Collection. Special Note: This item(s) contains plant or animal properties that may be covered by the Endangered Species Act (ESA). We have taken care to ensure that this item(s) meets the standard for sale under the ESA. However, certain states and other countries have laws that are more restrictive than the ESA. It is the bidder’s responsibility to ensure that it is lawful to purchase or transport this item(s) into their state, and to obtain the necessary import and export approvals. Delay or failure to obtain any such permit or approval does not relieve the buyer of paying for the item(s) and consummating the purchase. CONDITION: Very fine overall, all matching. Rifle retains about 95% orig blue on bbl, magazine, frame retains about 80% case colors with remainder silver/grey, buttplate and lever retain about 30-50% muted case colors, overall silver/grey with staining on lever. Stocks are sound and well fit, retaining most of their orig varnish. There is a 1″ sliver missing from lower right side buttstock, just above trigger. There are several scuffs and scratches in wood, especially on right side near base of pistol grip as seen in photos. Mechanically fine with crisp fine bore. 50412-8 (30,000-50,000) ESA
Just won Lot 1062 – see description directly above!!! Super exited to see this one in person. I spoke to one of the experts at the auction house about this weapon. He was the one that inspected it and wrote the description above, and helped to set the bidding guidance. He told me that JDJ is the one of the few auction house’s in the country that guarantees item descriptions. He went on to say that both 1062 and 1074 are fully operational and functional. When I told him I might pick them up in person, he jokingly suggested that we could go out back and shoot a few rounds out of each. He explained what the set trigger is on 1062, how you chamber a round, then push the trigger forward to ‘set’ the trigger. By doing this, the trigger has a 1911 like four Oz pull. Super excited to see how the trigger breaks on each of these pieces, which he said would be more than fine to shoot. Any comments on 1062 would be most appreciated. During the call, I was told that 1062 might have fetched 50k plus a few years back, and that I was doing the right thing by purchasing the most expensive I could afford.
Might have to hang 1062 in my office. Question. Case Color will fade if exposed to direct sunlight I hear. Would it also fade if hung on an interior wall of my office or home? In either case, sunlight would never directly hit the firearm. But it would be exposed to light all the same. My office windows are treated with a UV blocking tint, same for my house. I need to look for articles discussing damage to CCH caused by indoor irradiance.
Swapping the below for 1062 – boring asset for a fun one …
November 7, 2015
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Very nice! congrats on an exceptionally nice 1886!
Thanks TX! I know it’s hard to tell from the pictures, but does it look like the magazine loading door on Lot 1062 is cracked at the part where the left and right side meet? I compared this piece to all other pics of the 1886 listed on the site, this auction house has very good high definition pictures BTW.
I also watched a take down video on youtube from the accidental gunsmith. As he disassembled the rifle, he called the entire piece the “magazine loading door” and removed it from the rifle with one screw. I found a full parts schematic off the homestead-service.com website which I have attempted to paste into this post below. The screw he used to remove the ‘magazine loading door’ corresponds to number 31 below, the ‘Spring cover screw’. So the crack that I think I see is where part 29 and 32 meet (Spring cover base and Spring cover leaf respectively).
The homestead service diagram parts 29 through 33 – very tough to read from a computer. Alas, I could find no takedown book on the homestead site for the 1886 so I purchased the 1892 e-book. Could not find a homestead e-book or manual for the 1886 but figure heck, I will be getting a 1892 anyways, and I suspect most of the parts are similar or the same…
Dan,
Congratulations on the nice 1886 you won. Very nice. I looked at the picture of the loading gate and see what you mean about what appears to be a crack. I personally don’t know much about the model 1886, but I’m sure someone will be along who can help. I don’t think Julia would have left this detail out of their description if something were wrong, especially since they provide a nice close up of that side of the receiver.
Al
FWIW: The loading gate on the Model 1892 is totally different from that on the Model 1886. The lines on the left side of the loading gate could be cracks but they might also only be striation marks from the assembly having been removed and the spring tension forcing the edge of the gate itself to “bounce” back and mark the spring cover base. Hopefully, that is all it is as that piece has a nice CCH to it.
Attached is a schematic of the Model 1886 with disassembly/assembly instructions.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Wincacher said
FWIW: The loading gate on the Model 1892 is totally different from that on the Model 1886. The lines on the left side of the loading gate could be cracks but they might also only be striation marks from the assembly having been removed and the spring tension forcing the edge of the gate itself to “bounce” back and mark the spring cover base. Hopefully, that is all it is as that piece has a nice CCH to it.Attached is a schematic of the Model 1886 with disassembly/assembly instructions.
Wincacher & Al,
Wow, thanks for the meat and potatoes answers guys, answers everything I asked and more. A follow on question would be this. Is this ‘loading gate’ assembly something that can be swapped from one rifle to another? Let’s say I purchased an old 1886 for parts only. Which I may do – in the preppers world, one = none and two = one. It’s the exact reason why I may purchase Al’s second 1894 20 inch barreled rifle he has on gunbroker. I purchased the ‘mint’ 1950 made 1894 but, according to prepper logic, I would need an identical rifle (Al’s 1942 version) that could be used for parts in case my main shooter breaks down in a SHTF scenario.
As far as Lot 1062 goes, if the loading gate is broken, would it be a stretch to ask the auction house can help me locate a replacement? I would be happy to pay for this of coarse, this part is maybe $200 bucks for a mechanically excellent part? I would keep the original so that if I ever wanted to sell this gun, I would simply re-install the original ‘broken’ loading gate on the rifle so that the rifle keeps it’s ‘all original’ designation.
Agreed with Al’s assessment about JDJ. I spoke with one of the Winchester Guru’s there and he said both Lot 1062 and Lot 1074 were in “excellent” mechanical condition and are perfectly safe to shoot. He also suggested that if I come up to pick these up in person, that, time permitting, we take the rifles ‘out in the back’ and put a few rounds through them. Which I would love to do BTW. I will call JDJ and speak with this guy again, and ask if these are simply ‘striation marks’ as Winchaser suggest above. The guy from JDJ could not say enough about the excellent condition of 1062.
Seems like this is a high wear part and would be a likely candidate for breaking on a well used rifle. And the kind of piece that I could get from a ‘parts only’ 1886. Has anyone here seen this piece crack?
The loading gate parts are interchangeable but I doubt you will ever find another one that is similarly case hardened. That being said, there are plenty replacement parts available on eBay – the right one always come around from time to time. And, no, the spring cover base is not a high wear part and I, personally, have never seen one break.
"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
Wincacher said
The loading gate parts are interchangeable but I doubt you will ever find another one that is similarly case hardened. That being said, there are plenty replacement parts available on eBay – the right one always come around from time to time. And, no, the spring cover base is not a high wear part and I, personally, have never seen one break.
Thanks, I heard back from the auction house it’s a surface scratch, not a stress fracture. One of their Winchester guru’s disassembled the loading gate assembly and gave it a detail inspection. He said it was a scratch from being previously disassembled, and that if someone not know how to properly install the spring cover leaf spring (item 33 from my list above) the gate flips forward and scratches the base, which he said was a common issue. So he disassembled the gun and under a 10 power loop and high intensity light determined that no crack was evident , only a surface scratch.
Great news, I am pleased with my first (and maybe only) auction experience, and my two new rifles, one of which will be hung in my office. That is unless I am out voted when I bring this up during the next Partner meeting. Although this is a straight up piece of Americana, I am not sure my other Partners will agree that it’s an appropriate item to display in a money management firm. My firm is about twenty minutes from New Haven CT, but you always have to think what potential investors might think. One will definitely be hung in my home office, unless you guys tell me that exposing it to any kind of light would be a bad thing for what remains of the case color finish. Would be a pity to lock these two beauties away in a dark safe.
If the rifle is hung in a shadowbox with a UV glass cover it would be protected from damage due to light.
Vince
Southern Oregon
NRA member
Fraternal Order of Eagles
“There is but one answer to be made to the dynamite bomb and that can best be made by the Winchester rifle.”
Teddy Roosevelt
November 7, 2015
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FWIW Dan my financial advisor wasn’t real big on some of my Winchester acquisitions but I told him it was simple diversification. I call it my blue steel and walnut investment strategy. Some have done quite well, some not so well, all very pleasant to gaze upon. He generally listens to me; I forecast the gold bubble bursting awhile back and he told me I was wrong, lol. Winchesters are the only commodity I’ll invest in.
Welcome to the WACA Dan. You are really off to a great start in Winchester collecting with those two pieces.
They really had some nice 86s in the auction, I was interested in lots 1072 and 1073 but didn’t work out for me.
Like others I would suggest keeping your 86s original, or at least not doing anything to them you can’t undo.
You had mentioned a possible wall display. You can get UV protected shadow boxes and cubes for displaying your guns at: http://www.displaycaseart.com/
They will make about any size you want and are really good folks to deal with.
Please report back on your rifles when they arrive!
Winchester Model 1873 44-40 circa 1886
Lot 1074 arrived yesterday, here is my youngest holding it. Will get better quality pics on Saturday morning in the better outdoor morning light. Let me know if know if this pic is out of bounds and I will remove immediately. My initial impression in handling this is the rock solid feeling when working the action. I purchased twelve 45-70 A-Zoom snap caps – the magazine holds nine snap caps (which are a hair shorter than my live 45-70 Ammo. I have dry fired it twice by accident, and cycled the snap caps for about 30 shots – they really do fly out of the receiver when cambering a new round, landing three or four feet behind me when ejecting from a standing position. The back site is solid and appears to function normally and is properly lubricated – it feels like it is brand new. I examined the front post site with a 10x jewelers grade loop and it looks like it was impacted – the top two milimeters is slightly bent to the left, but that’s under 10x magnification.
It feels like I am holding a brand new rifle, the fit and finish is amazing. More solid than my modern Marlin 1895 45-70 (Davidson LTD III). The CCH is better than the auction pictures, with much of the lacquer remaining. The barrel looks good, and the action feels super solid, I would love to take this out and shoot it. A long time forum member has been PM’ing me, he has been buying and selling Winchesters for 20 plus years so I will ask him give it a full safety assessment. I may also have a well known local smith do a full safety check as well. The fellow forum member lives about 80 minutes to the North of me and a great outdoor range is right between us, hopefully we can meet up there and shoot this, as well as my Model 94 I just purchased from Al. Range report to follow on this rifle once I know it’s safe to shoot.
That an awful lot of rifle for that young lady holding it, but I am a firm believer in getting them started shooting as soon as they are ready and able to handle it properly!
Bert
WACA Historian & Board of Director Member #6571L
Dan,
That’s a beatiful rifle–congrats. No offense at all with the photo. I totally agree with Bert about getting our youngsters involved. My 13-year-old son just completed his Hunter’s Safety Course last week and he shot his first mule deer buck when he was 11 under the Mentored Youth Program here in Oregon (photos attached below). I also take him trapshooting about once a month. Education and building respect for firearms at a young age is the key to the survival of our hobby for future generations. It’s unfortunate that too many people have blinders on and lack common sense in this day and age.
Don
November 7, 2015
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Nice! Looking forward to the range report. Be sure to bring a 22 along for you and that little lady to shoot.
TXGunNut said
Nice! Looking forward to the range report. Be sure to bring a 22 along for you and that little lady to shoot.
She is only six, so has just started learning on her pink daisy BB gun. It’s cute, I have a reactive target set up in the back yard, and as we take turns shooting the BB gun, the girls fight about how gets to shoot next, sprinting up to the target after each shot to see where they hit. My oldest is big enough to handle a 22, but she is also just learning on the daisy as well. Someday my girls will shoot daddy’s 45-70 Winchester, I have a few different brands of cowboy loads that are tame as compared to the full power stuff. Never mind the big Garret rounds that are only safe through modern firearms. It would be great to have an ultra high quality 1886 replica that could handle modern day loads like the Garret. I am thinking it’s time to give Turnbull a call…
Lot 1074 was listed as ‘mechanically excellent’ on the James D Julia (“JDJ”) auction description, and the JDJ Winchester specialist told me that this gun is more than fine to shoot. Maybe I don’t need someone to thoroughly check it out? I plan on asking the forum member who lives in CT to give this a good once over, if only to spot anything fishy like a re-lined barrel or some other major flaw that I would not notice. That said, I do trust that the folks at JDJ fully authenticated this rifle, as well as Lot 1062, which will hopefully arrive next week. So I may just put a few boxes of 30-30 through the Model 94 Al just sold me this Saturday and wait on my new 1886. But I am really tempted to put a box or three of 45-70 through Lot 1074 as well. Around here, Spring thru Fall is golf season, for me, it’s outdoor range season.
deerhunter said
Dan,That’s a beatiful rifle–congrats. No offense at all with the photo. I totally agree with Bert about getting our youngsters involved. My 13-year-old son just completed his Hunter’s Safety Course last week and he shot his first mule deer buck when he was 11 under the Mentored Youth Program here in Oregon (photos attached below). I also take him trapshooting about once a month. Education and building respect for firearms at a young age is the key to the survival of our hobby for future generations. It’s unfortunate that too many people have blinders on and lack common sense in this day and age.
Don
Thanks Don, great pic of your son. Here is my oldest daughter. For the past four years, I have been telling her bedtime stories about a robin hood type girl pirate, whose crew uses 45-70 rifles to deal with the myriad bad guys and monsters in the stories. For her especially, this 45-70 meant something, as she finally knows what the rifle “Pinky” and her crew uses looks like.
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