kem@meyersandshaulis.com said
I currently have 855580 in my collection.  I have one other Black Diamond 1897 that I need to check the serial number.
  

Are you saying that S/N 855580 is a Black Diamond Trap Gun?  Can you send me pictures of it?  Per the factory records, it was manufactured in November 1929.

Bert - Win1885@msn.com

Bo Rich said

  Bert,  At the time I only have two Model 1897s in my collection.  My Black Diamond letters as a trap gun, 12 gauge, 30 inch barrel, pistol Grip, Takedown, S/N 194721 Received in the warehouse January 30, 1903.  shipped January 31, 1903 order number 174788.  The second is a Field grade 12 gauge with a 28 inch Modified choke.  S/N; 503102.
  

The pistol grip butt stock is unusual for a Trap Gun as most of them had the English style straight grip.  Can you send me pictures of your BD Trap Gun?  Does it have a matted barrel? What grade is the wood e.g. 2X, 3X, or  ?

S/N 503102 was manufactured in September 1910.  It should have a Type 4 slide bar marking and a Type 7 barrel address marking.

Bert

Bo Rich said
Bert,  Yes my copy of the Winchester catalog dated January 2, 1931 only list the Model 97 in Standard Take-Down, Guard and Riot Gun, Solid Frame or Take Down, and Trench Gun Solid Frame only.  Am I correct in that in your survey the last Trap or Tournament grade with the black diamond inlaid in the butt stock was made in 1922?
  

Not quite.  There is one Tournament Gun (s/n 828398) that was manufactured with the black diamond stock in December of 1927.  That stated, my survey does appear to indicate that the black diamond stocks were discontinued as a standard feature sometime in late April of 1922.

Bert

I am not of the opinion that the post-1918 production Trap Guns were "parts guns".  The following information is directly from my ongoing research survey and lists all of the Trap and Tournament grade guns that I currently have documented.

Per my research (using the original Winchester catalogs), the Trap and Tournament grade guns were officially discontinued shortly after Olin assumed the ownership of Winchester in 1931. Th following is quoted from my recent article discussing the Model 1897 (97) production run.

"As a result of the Great Depression and Winchester’s rapid financial decline and eventual ruin, the Olin Corporation acquired the Winchester Repeating Arms Company out of bankruptcy receivership in early 1931.  Winchester at that time became a division of the Western Cartridge Company.  Production of the Model 97 for the entirety of the 1930s (January 1, 1930 – December 31, 1939) amounted to just 52,709 guns, with no physical design changes/improvements made.  Winchester (Olin) discontinued the Brush Gun, Trap Gun, and Tournament Gun variations in 1931, replacing the latter two with the “Standard Trap” and “Special Trap” guns."

Bert

  Bert,  At the time I only have two Model 1897s in my collection.  My Black Diamond letters as a trap gun, 12 gauge, 30 inch barrel, pistol Grip, Takedown, S/N 194721 Received in the warehouse January 30, 1903.  shipped January 31, 1903 order number 174788.  The second is a Field grade 12 gauge with a 28 inch Modified choke.  S/N; 503102.

Adam

Bo Rich said
Bert,  I found that information many years ago.  On page 169 of the Winchester Hand book Madis states that the inlaid Black Diamond was discontinued in 1919.  Even if they made Black Diamond Model 1897s into the 1920s.  It is still several years before 1941 when the gun in question was made.  
  

As a cautionary note, almost every statistical piece of information published by Madis should be viewed with a very healthy dose of salt. 

The Model 1897 Black Diamond Trap guns were in production until they were replaced by the Standard and Special Trap guns in the year 1931.  Having stated that, the number of Trap Guns manufactured between April 1922 and December 1930 was very small.  In my survey, I have just (9) documented.   In the July 1897 through March 1922 time period, I have (231) documented Black Diamond Trap Guns.

Bert

Ricklin said
I believe the Model 1912 was the replacement for the 1897. Perhaps they chose to start with 20 gauge for the model 12 for that reason. Perhaps not the primary reason. There were at least a few years they made both guns.
  

The Model 1912 was most certainly not the replacement for the Model 1897.  Both Models were coincidently in production from August 6th, 1912 through September 30th, 1957 (a 45-year run for both models).

Bert

Bo Rich said
  I must say that I did not closely inspect the 20 gauge Black Diamond engraved Model 97.  I read that Winchester never made a 20 gauge Model 97.  So, I assumed it to be a put together shotgun.  The owner said that the case was made up after he got the shotgun.  Dirtman 324 would you please post the Cody letter from 1978.  Also what did Pauline Muerrie say about the shotgun?  Winchester stopped making Black Diamond grade Model 97s in 1919.  They did however use the Black Diamond inlay in the Model 12 Pigeon grade up to 1941.  I ran a quick search, and found some Other Black Diamond engraved Model 1897s that were also 20 gauge guns.  Perhaps one of them is the one that was seen at the show.  Are they make up guns like I originally thought?  Or did Winchester make a 20 gauge Model 1897?  I would be interested in what other Collectors would think of this.  
     Also, of interest at the show was a Model 21 that was chambered in 14 gauge!  I asked the owner about the shotgun.  I was informed that it was a prototype that was not completed at the Winchester factory.  It was recovered, and Connecticut Shotgun completed the work with number Two engraving, and a deluxe checkered stock.  I read of Winchester making some 14 Gauge Model 59s.  Perhaps they were thinking of making a Model 21 in 14 gauge, but scraped the idea.  
  

I have found just two Model 1897 20-ga guns thus far, and one of them is positively a Fake (s/n 440708). 

In my survey, I have documented "black diamond" Trap guns well into the 1920s.  Where did you find documentation that they were discontinued in the year 1919?

Bert