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        <title>Winchester Collector - Forum: Winchester Shotguns</title>
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                    <title>Steven Gabrielli on Model 12 QUESTION</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/model-12-question-2/#p177805</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/model-12-question-2/#p177805</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>I was thinking it allowed air to escape will loading a full mag, IDK. Never saw that on other makes of pump guns, was it really needed?</p>
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					                    <pubDate>Fri, 03 Apr 2026 16:46:12 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Jim F in CT on Model 12 QUESTION</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/model-12-question-2/#p177802</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/model-12-question-2/#p177802</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>I believe it provides a small amount of “binding” when the forend is pushed forward as part of the takedown operation.</p>
<p>Keeping that forearm “under control” during takedown, will help ensure no marring at the left-front of the receiver during reassembly.</p>
<p>On the Model 97, a flat leaf spring accomplishes the same “binding.”</p>
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					                    <pubDate>Fri, 03 Apr 2026 16:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Ricklin on New member...Model 12 Heavy Duck confirmation questions</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/#p177781</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/new-member-model-12-heavy-duck-confirmation-questions/#p177781</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>Our old guns are certainly full of it. History that is. Think of all those M12's insulted with a dial a duck. At least a well done aftermarket vent rib mostly enhances a gun. Shooters anyway. A dial a duck esp. just wrecks some otherwise great M12's. They do work...at least they work with Lead. If I had to choose I'll take the gun with the aftermarket rib first. It's useful, the dial a duck...not so much.</p>
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					                    <pubDate>Fri, 03 Apr 2026 01:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Steven Gabrielli on Model 12 QUESTION</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/model-12-question-2/#p177761</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/model-12-question-2/#p177761</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>What’s this little scoop for on the magazine tube assembly?<img data-upload="1" data-width="1628" data-height="1030" title="IMG_0095.jpeg" alt="IMG_0095.jpeg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/sgabrie8544/2026/04/IMG_0095.jpeg" /></p>
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					                    <pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2026 21:12:42 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Ricklin on Model 24</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/model-24-3/#p177760</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/model-24-3/#p177760</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>I like clocked screws as well. We most all do. It is wise use a tap for butt plate screws. There are appropriate taps available. An undersize hole for your pad can result in a crack. If no tap, drill your hole large enough that only the threads cut in to the wood.</p>
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					                    <pubDate>Thu, 02 Apr 2026 20:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Zebulon on My Model 21 Skeet: Good news and bad news</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-model-21-skeet-good-news-and-bad-news/page-3/#p177587</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-model-21-skeet-good-news-and-bad-news/page-3/#p177587</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>But you didn't miss as many. </p>
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					                    <pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2026 16:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Jeremy P on My Model 21 Skeet: Good news and bad news</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-model-21-skeet-good-news-and-bad-news/page-3/#p177581</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-model-21-skeet-good-news-and-bad-news/page-3/#p177581</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>'Serious'ly inconsistent is what I am! <img class="spSmiley" style="margin:0" title="Laugh" alt="Laugh" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif" /><img class="spSmiley" style="margin:0" title="Laugh" alt="Laugh" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif" /><img class="spSmiley" style="margin:0" title="Laugh" alt="Laugh" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-smileys/sf-laugh.gif" /></p>
<p>I mean, that 21 looks a lot nicer missing birds than mine does! </p>
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					                    <pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2026 16:23:27 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Commissioner on Winchester model 1897 shotguns12 ga.and 16 ga,</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/winchester-model-1897-shotguns12-ga-and-16-ga/#p177551</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/winchester-model-1897-shotguns12-ga-and-16-ga/#p177551</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>My neighbor has a couple of nice 1897 shotguns for sale one 12 ga and one sixteen ga. Both modified barrels. All original. Good stocks, no breaks or cracks. He is asking $1200 for the pair, plus shipping. Guns work perfect. If interested, just let me know 541-726-0187 Commissioner.</p>
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					                    <pubDate>Mon, 30 Mar 2026 00:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Zebulon on My Model 21 Skeet: Good news and bad news</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-model-21-skeet-good-news-and-bad-news/page-3/#p177544</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-model-21-skeet-good-news-and-bad-news/page-3/#p177544</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>I had a brief scare when I got home and tried to break the gun down to clean it. Pushed latch wheel and tried to roll it forward. Nada. Several more tries and still nada.finally, opened the gun as wide as it would go, to make sure I cocked hammers. Laid gun on table, forearm up and as soon as I applied pressure to the latch wheel, it sank and rolled forward, enabling me to snap the forearm out and away.  </p>
<p>Looked at the ejector housing and determined I should flush it with Kroil and then lightly lube it with Rem Oil. I have some weighted test dummies so should be able to verify ejection strength. </p>
<p>The big thing I've got to get used to is releasing the trigger after the first shot, enough to reset for the second shot. The 21 is supposed to have one of the best single selective triggers but it does take a little practice. </p>
<p>Jeremy is getting serious. </p>
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					                    <pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2026 22:58:22 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>TXGunNut on My Model 21 Skeet: Good news and bad news</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-model-21-skeet-good-news-and-bad-news/page-3/#p177541</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-model-21-skeet-good-news-and-bad-news/page-3/#p177541</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>Bill-</p>
<p>It was a great day to chase clay birds! I think once you get comfortable with this 21 it will be much easier to concentrate on hitting the birds. The wind was having a little fun with the targets this morning but nothing like the wind this afternoon. It <em>was</em> hard to concentrate on where your shots were going when the sun hit the burl in that Walnut! I'm a little worried about Jeremy P. though. He's getting pretty serious about this game and seems to be hitting more birds on every outing. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Mike</p>
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					                    <pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2026 21:56:42 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Zebulon on My Model 21 Skeet: Good news and bad news</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-model-21-skeet-good-news-and-bad-news/page-3/#p177539</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-model-21-skeet-good-news-and-bad-news/page-3/#p177539</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>This thread has been dormant for a while but I did promise an update after shooting my repaired Model 21. </p>
<p>This morning TxGunNut, Jeremy P, and I met to shoot two rounds of Skeet and even visited the pattern board to see where the patterns were centering at 20 yards. </p>
<p>My ammunition.for the day was Winchester AA Low Recoil and Noise, 7/8 ounce #8 lead at about 950 fs. In my 7.25 pound gun, it felt like shooting upland field loads in a 20 gauge gun.</p>
<p>For comparison, I fired one shot of the 1 ounce, 1350 fs load i used last time and learned it was just as unpleasant as before. It hurt. </p>
<p>My Model 21 Skeet Gun was centering patterns 6 to 8 inches high at that short distance,  the Skeet 1 and Skeet 2 barrels shot about the same height over POA. We were not counting pellets or looking at pattern densities.</p>
<p>Obviously my Skeet Gun was set up for rising targets, knowing which helped my scores a bit for the subsequent 50 shots at clay pigeons. A bit.  Whenever I missed my friends would remark how beautifully the Sun illuminated my gun's burl Walnut. </p>
<p>The repaired forearm showed no ill effects after shooting 52 shots.  I noted that ejection became sluggish about halfway though the first round of Skeet and very sluggish to non-existent later. I attribute this to the significant residue accumulating in the ejector ways, which I attribute to the low velocity shells leaving dirty chambers.  It may not have helped that I lubricated the ways with Gunslick instead of Breaklfree CLP</p>
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					                    <pubDate>Sun, 29 Mar 2026 20:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Zebulon on My first model 21!</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-first-model-21/#p177428</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-first-model-21/#p177428</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">
<p>
<strong>Steven Gabrielli said </strong><br />
I see. Thanks for the insight.<br />
  </p>
</blockquote>
<p>Steve, I should add that it's possible to buy a good used, substantially unmodified Model 21 -- one of those built in New Haven before they became a Custom Shop special order, and well before the Custom Shop was sold to Tony Galazan -- for very significantly less than fifteen thousand dollars. If that were not so,  I wouldn't own the one I bought last year. </p>
<p>To talk in very rough numbers,  as long as you are willing to buy a twelve gauge, field grade gun with some visible signs of use and -- as many of them have acquired, for good reason -- a non-original recoil pad, four to five thousand USD will get it done. And that is about a grand higher than two years ago, because of the persistent inflation. </p>
<p>The overwhelming supermajority of Olin Model 21 production was 12 gauge. I rather suspect the few specimens turned out by CSC are small bores. Bottom line: If you want other than a 12 bore, it takes a painful amount of money. </p>
<p>If I had been able to have my druthers, mine would have been a straight-gripped sixteen gauge because that was once the "Queen of the Uplands." But,  In order to afford the gun, I've had to do what the Brits have done always: buy a 12, leave the blockbuster loads to the goose hunters and shoot low recoil, low velocity 7/8 to 1 ounce shells. [Some fool consigned a like new Browning Gold Hunter with Briley chokes and a Zero Halliiburton case for peanuts last year and that will get whatever high velocity shells I've got in my locker.]</p>
<p>The risk you take is in buying a half-Century old gun that needs work. Mark Douglas has a video showing what takes to repair loose barrels and it is frightening. </p>
<p>I was lucky, although I got a bad scare. I bought a 1947 Skeet Gun on Gunbroker from an East Texas collector with a good reputation, because he was accepting offers according to auction rules and wiiling to deal. [The Cody letter called for a checkered butt and a Pachmayr Old English pad was there instead. Fine. For me, a seven pound 12 with a checkered butt may be original but it's stupid.] </p>
<p>I  drove over to pick it up and did not notice the forearm had an incipient crack because it was an early gun without the "forearm recoil abutment" - a Rube Goldberg device installed in later guns. Had I studied my volume of Schwing more carefully, I might have worried about this but I was ignorant. First shot at the Skeet range left the forearm in my hand, a bloody trigger finger and a no-longer-incipient crack. </p>
<p>Very fortunately, my gunsmith has long experience with double shotguns and diagnosed the underlying problem - a poorly inletted forearm iron that had resulted in an old, small, repaired split; but the smith didn't address the underlying problem. Ron kept the gun a couple of weeks and glass bedded the forearm iron, then ran a couple of proof loads to make sure the problem was solved. $350 USD. </p>
<p>The Model 21 Skeet Gun is a curious animal. According to early Gun Digests, it was priced exactly the same as the Field grade gun. The pre-1947 versions had 26" barrels bored Skeet 1 and 2 and 20 LPI checkering. Non-automatic safety. Choice of straight or pistol grip stock, checkered butt. No mention of upgraded wood. Supposedly, starting in 1947 the checkering was cut 18LPI and the barrels were lengthened to 28" </p>
<p>Go figure. My gun's D.O.M. is 1947 but the checkering is 22 LPI, the barrels are 26", and the wood is anything but plain.  Cody says "Skeet finish" and the furniture in fact reflects a high level of polish. </p>
<p>I am not sure what to think. The gun is [almost] everything I wanted in a 21, it's <img data-upload="1" data-width="1000" data-height="750" title="pix585859008.jpg" alt="pix585859008.jpg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/zebulon/2026/03/pix585859008.jpg" width="100" height="75" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="1000" data-height="750" title="pix802593935.jpg" alt="pix802593935.jpg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/zebulon/2026/03/pix802593935.jpg" width="100" height="75" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="1000" data-height="750" title="pix999855458-1.jpg" alt="pix999855458-1.jpg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/zebulon/2026/03/pix999855458-1.jpg" width="100" height="75" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="1000" data-height="750" title="pix228917348.jpg" alt="pix228917348.jpg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/zebulon/2026/03/pix228917348.jpg" width="100" height="75" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="1000" data-height="750" title="pix918631953.jpg" alt="pix918631953.jpg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/zebulon/2026/03/pix918631953.jpg" width="100" height="75" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="1000" data-height="750" title="pix926980745.jpg" alt="pix926980745.jpg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/zebulon/2026/03/pix926980745.jpg" width="100" height="75" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="1000" data-height="750" title="pix001962637-1.jpg" alt="pix001962637-1.jpg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/zebulon/2026/03/pix001962637-1.jpg" width="100" height="75" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="1000" data-height="750" title="pix549167578.jpg" alt="pix549167578.jpg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/zebulon/2026/03/pix549167578.jpg" width="100" height="75" /><img data-upload="1" data-width="1000" data-height="750" title="pix279324416.jpg" alt="pix279324416.jpg" src="https://winchestercollector.org/wp-content/sp-resources/forum-image-uploads/zebulon/2026/03/pix279324416.jpg" width="100" height="75" />beautiful, the price was reasonable even with Ron's bill, and I intend to shoot it a lot. But I realize now that I was lucky not to get burned and didn't know what I was doing.  As with several other pieces, this will be a collection of one. </p>
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					                    <pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2026 20:00:51 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Steven Gabrielli on My first model 21!</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-first-model-21/#p177420</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
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					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>I see. Thanks for the insight.</p>
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					                    <pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2026 17:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Zebulon on My first model 21!</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-first-model-21/#p177419</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
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					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>Steve,  the 21 is a different country. Ned Schwing noted in his book, <em><span style="text-decoration: underline">Winchester's Finest,</span></em> that the 21 is not subjected to the same collector rules as other models. Most collectors buy the Model 21 to shoot and hunt with.  There were relatively few of them made - roughly 30,000. When you say that's a lot of money, it really isn't when their only competition is a Purdey or Holland. By that, I mean the people who want one are not tempted by Spanish, Italian, or German doubles - some of which are very nice.</p>
<p>Thei construction of the 21 is unique and it makes them very stout. And very expensive to build. </p>
<p>CSC/GALAZAN bought the rights and the tooling from Olin and will build you a new one branded Winchester. Starting at $15K for a plain Jane. CSC also restores old 21s and does a thriving business. </p>
<p>What our friend Bill has bought is a 21 upgraded to Grand American except for the engraving and overdone inlay work I've never cared for. The beauty of the Model is in its.lines, durability and understated Americana. </p>
<p>A big reason for NOT buying a used 21 from an unknowledgable or unscrupulous seller is hidden defects can be ruinously expensive to repair. CSC warrants their rebuilt guns and Bill also bought from a reputable dealer.</p>
<p>In the end, the free market determines price. </p>
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					                    <pubDate>Fri, 27 Mar 2026 17:28:28 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Steven Gabrielli on My first model 21!</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/my-first-model-21/#p177375</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
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					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>Someone educate me, I’m not a shotgun guy. Why is it that replaced barrels and custom stocks on a model 21 still give the gun such value? If you did that on a rifle, everyone would call it a “shooter”. That’s a lot of shekels for a shotgun. </p>
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					                    <pubDate>Thu, 26 Mar 2026 22:00:26 +0000</pubDate>
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