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        <title>Winchester Collector - Forum: Winchester Shotguns</title>
        <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/</link>
        <description><![CDATA[Official Site of the Winchester Arms Collectors Association]]></description>
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                    <title>Bert H. on Engraved Black Diamond 1897 20 gauge at OGCA/WACA show.</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184928</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184928</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">
<p><strong>Bo Rich said </strong><br />
  I must say that I did not closely inspect the 20 gauge Black Diamond engraved Model 97.  I read that Winchester never made a 20 gauge Model 97.  So, I assumed it to be a put together shotgun.  The owner said that the case was made up after he got the shotgun.  Dirtman 324 would you please post the Cody letter from 1978.  Also what did Pauline Muerrie say about the shotgun?  Winchester stopped making Black Diamond grade Model 97s in 1919.  They did however use the Black Diamond inlay in the Model 12 Pigeon grade up to 1941.  I ran a quick search, and found some Other Black Diamond engraved Model 1897s that were also 20 gauge guns.  Perhaps one of them is the one that was seen at the show.  Are they make up guns like I originally thought?  Or did Winchester make a 20 gauge Model 1897?  I would be interested in what other Collectors would think of this.  <br />
     Also, of interest at the show was a Model 21 that was chambered in 14 gauge!  I asked the owner about the shotgun.  I was informed that it was a prototype that was not completed at the Winchester factory.  It was recovered, and Connecticut Shotgun completed the work with number Two engraving, and a deluxe checkered stock.  I read of Winchester making some 14 Gauge Model 59s.  Perhaps they were thinking of making a Model 21 in 14 gauge, but scraped the idea.  <br />
  </p>
</blockquote>
<p>I have found just two Model 1897 20-ga guns thus far, and one of them is positively a <span style="color: #ff0000"><strong>Fake</strong></span> (s/n 440708). </p>
<p>In my survey, I have documented "black diamond" Trap guns well into the 1920s.  Where did you find documentation that they were discontinued in the year 1919?</p>
<p>Bert</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2026 18:12:35 +0000</pubDate>
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				                <item>
                    <title>Bo Rich on Engraved Black Diamond 1897 20 gauge at OGCA/WACA show.</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184924</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184924</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>  I must say that I did not closely inspect the 20 gauge Black Diamond engraved Model 97.  I read that Winchester never made a 20 gauge Model 97.  So, I assumed it to be a put together shotgun.  The owner said that the case was made up after he got the shotgun.  Dirtman 324 would you please post the Cody letter from 1978.  Also what did Pauline Muerrie say about the shotgun?  Winchester stopped making Black Diamond grade Model 97s in 1919.  They did however use the Black Diamond inlay in the Model 12 Pigeon grade up to 1941.  I ran a quick search, and found some Other Black Diamond engraved Model 1897s that were also 20 gauge guns.  Perhaps one of them is the one that was seen at the show.  Are they make up guns like I originally thought?  Or did Winchester make a 20 gauge Model 1897?  I would be interested in what other Collectors would think of this.  <br />
     Also, of interest at the show was a Model 21 that was chambered in 14 gauge!  I asked the owner about the shotgun.  I was informed that it was a prototype that was not completed at the Winchester factory.  It was recovered, and Connecticut Shotgun completed the work with number Two engraving, and a deluxe checkered stock.  I read of Winchester making some 14 Gauge Model 59s.  Perhaps they were thinking of making a Model 21 in 14 gauge, but scraped the idea.  </p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2026 13:10:55 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Bo Rich on Engraved Black Diamond 1897 20 gauge at OGCA/WACA show.</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184920</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184920</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the input Guys!  I noticed that RIA had a 1941 Model 97 Black Diamond 20 Gauge  engraved shotgun on auction in 2025.   This may be the same gun that my Son saw at the show.  </p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2026 01:14:51 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Dirtman324 on Engraved Black Diamond 1897 20 gauge at OGCA/WACA show.</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184917</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184917</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>I guess I'll join the party, I'm the owners son. Bert you met a family friend that travels with my dad from time to time in Cody I haven't had the pleasure of going quite yet. I think a few things got thrown around here that quite weren't right. The gun in question does have a Cody letter dated from 1978. Neither of us have said that you authenticated anything, as you said that you gave your opinion on it. It's something of interest either way and will get to the bottom of it in due time, until then it will just rest in the case 😉.</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2026 00:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Bert H. on Engraved Black Diamond 1897 20 gauge at OGCA/WACA show.</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184915</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184915</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">
<p><strong>Bo Rich said </strong><br />
My Son told me that he saw the same Model 1897 engraved Black Diamond 20 gauge made in 1941 that He saw last year.  He told me that the owner told him that He got it authenticated last July at the Cody show.  I told him that the gun was a made up gun that was not original.  Bert, are you aware of this?   Maybe, I missed something.<br />
  </p>
</blockquote>
<p>I am aware of it, and I was specifically asked my opinion of it, which I offered.  However, I did not officially "authenticate" it.  What I told the owner (and his son), was that it appeared to be factory Custom shop work.  The gun and the case it is in are both superbly done, and I recommended that he contact Pauline Muerrle to see if she had any information about it, as Cody does not.  </p>
<p>Bert</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2026 23:32:02 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Bill Hanzel on Engraved Black Diamond 1897 20 gauge at OGCA/WACA show.</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184913</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184913</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>We will see, it has a letter, and Bert had it in his hands……. If that’s good enough for the Leary</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2026 23:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>TXGunNut on Engraved Black Diamond 1897 20 gauge at OGCA/WACA show.</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184909</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184909</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>As Ricklin points out, authentication involves paper. Let's see it! Personally I'd rather see the gun. Frankenchester or no I suspect it's purty!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Mike</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2026 22:43:27 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Ricklin on Engraved Black Diamond 1897 20 gauge at OGCA/WACA show.</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184908</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184908</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>Now this sounds like it could get interesting. Authenticated at a show by whom, regardless of location a show does not authenticate a gun. If truly "authenticated" documentation should accompany by a recognized expert in 1897 Winchester shotguns. Let the documentation be your guide, my money is on there not being any other than perhaps a Cody serial look up.</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2026 22:30:28 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Bo Rich on Engraved Black Diamond 1897 20 gauge at OGCA/WACA show.</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184903</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/engraved-black-diamond-1897-20-gauge-at-ogca-waca-show/#p184903</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>My Son told me that he saw the same Model 1897 engraved Black Diamond 20 gauge made in 1941 that He saw last year.  He told me that the owner told him that He got it authenticated last July at the Cody show.  I told him that the gun was a made up gun that was not original.  Bert, are you aware of this?   Maybe, I missed something.</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2026 20:20:27 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>kem@meyersandshaulis.com on Model 12 pigeon grade</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/model-12-pigeon-grade/#p184901</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/model-12-pigeon-grade/#p184901</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>I don't have any pictures, but the gun is 99% with only minor cycling wear on the action bar.  It is a late production gun #1968899.</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2026 19:16:53 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Darrin Smith on Model 12 pigeon grade</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/model-12-pigeon-grade/#p184892</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/model-12-pigeon-grade/#p184892</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>Post as many pictures as your patience and ability allow highlighting the details of engraving and condition. There are links, within this forum, outlining the picture posting process.</p>
<p>Any number of experts on this forum will give you their analysis and answer any questions based off the pictures you post.</p>
<p>Darrin.</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Tue, 29 Sep 2026 12:28:13 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>kik595 on winchester 1200 dating</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/winchester-1200-dating/page-7/#p184878</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/winchester-1200-dating/page-7/#p184878</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>Re above s/n, thanks!</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2026 22:11:37 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>Tom D on winchester 1200 dating</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/winchester-1200-dating/page-7/#p184875</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/winchester-1200-dating/page-7/#p184875</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>1987 production.</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2026 20:47:42 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>kem@meyersandshaulis.com on Model 12 pigeon grade</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/model-12-pigeon-grade/#p184874</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/model-12-pigeon-grade/#p184874</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>I am looking to purchase a Model 12 pigeon grade from a family member.  It is factory engraved in pattern 1A with "A" pattern checkering.  30" barrel choked full.  The condition is 99% with very little use.  I know the gun is genuine as it was ordered by my grandfather in the early 60's and was given to my uncle at his passing.  Trying to arrive at a fair price that does not break my bank.  Gun Broker, the auction houses and seller's numbers range all over the board, no doubt due to questions of authenticity.  Do any of you have any suggestions?  </p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2026 19:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
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                    <title>kik595 on winchester 1200 dating</title>
                    <link>https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/winchester-1200-dating/page-7/#p184871</link>
                    <category>Winchester Shotguns</category>
                    <guid isPermaLink="true">https://winchestercollector.org/forum/winchester-shotguns/winchester-1200-dating/page-7/#p184871</guid>
					                        <description><![CDATA[<p>Howdy all, mostly a pistol collector here but taking a look at a neighbor's 1200 Defender he wants to part with soon. Would 1986-88 be about right for serial L205296X?</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
]]></description>
					                    <pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2026 17:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
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