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deer and elk rifle
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NE OREGON
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October 25, 2016 - 1:33 pm
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Hello, I live in NE Oregon where we hunt a few deer and elk. I have a Winchester Classic model, 270 super grade, and a classic feather weight, 7mm-08. The super grade is a very nice rifle, but is pretty heavy for an older guy to be packing around in the woods. The feather weight is much lighter, but kicks about as much or more than the 270. Both kick pretty hard and I would sure like to find a rifle that was good for both deer and elk that did not kick so much. For some reason I am pretty sensitive to recoil and bruise easily in shoulder area. I don’t care what brand of gun it is, and probably would not want to use muzzle breaks or anything that would make me deafer than I already am. I’d sure like to hear some suggestions if you have time. Thanks, Peter

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October 25, 2016 - 11:19 pm
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So, you may be looking for a rifle between .24 and .27– .24 because that is the minimum caliber for elk, and .27 because your .270 jolts you.

And/Or look at recoil tables and have that guide you.  I thought I read somewhere that manufacturers were putting a recoil damping mechanism in some stocks.

As you can tell from my suggestions, I really don’t have a suggestion to help you move toward a specific caliber or model.  The .270 was my main deer/elk rifle for many years.  That rifle migrated to my youngest son, so now I hunt with model ’94 Winchesters.  There are many newer calibers in the 24-30+ caliber range; you should be able to find a combination of caliber and model that will shoot flat, kick the animal hard, and not kick you too hard.

And–if you were to reload for your needs, you could somewhat adjust recoil from that end.

Sorry I’m not spot-on with help.  Maybe my ideas will help to prompt more specific suggestions from other members.

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October 26, 2016 - 2:55 am
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Eagle and others,

  The first thought that comes to my mind is the strap on “sissy pad”.  I have and use one with regularity at our silhouette shoots as rifles with crescent butt plates really can hurt without, and you have to use enough rifle to tip over the buffalo silhouette when you hit it, etc.  There are a number of us that use them.  They could be worn under a jacket so little chance to actually snag on raising the rifle, and the gel really does help the shoulder out!  A buddy has had two surgeries on his shoulder and the sissy pad is the only way he can still shoot at all.  If you are interested I will dig it out of my shooting bag and see if there is any identifying marks on it anymore.  I have the magnum version if I recall correctly.

  If the noise and recoil result in flinching, this can help.  However, in my experience the muzzle breaks do not impact the hearing of the shooter–but do so for the bystanders!  A good muzzle break could indeed be a big help if it is the correct design to minimize recoil to the shooter!  My 3 cents worth.

Tim Tomlinson

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October 26, 2016 - 12:44 pm
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I hesitate to alter the rifles with a muzzle break or by porting them. I guess I know very little about either, how they would affect the shooter, and/or how much they might effect recoil. I would be interested if someone could explain that.

I pulled up a recoil article and chart last night on the net. Good article and opened my eyes some. Some of these high powered calibers are real shoulder pounders.

 

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

 

Peter

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October 27, 2016 - 5:06 am
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So, are you saying you won’t be hunting with that .600 Nitro?

The .38-55 (10.1 lbs) is a deer and elk caliber for many hunters.  Are you looking to hunt the open areas up there, or will you be in the Blues/Wallowas?  Do you normally shoot critters under 200 yards or do you reach out for them?  There are folks over on the iFish hunting forum that swear by the 7mm-08 Rem. for deer and elk.  A 140 gr. bullet gives only 12.6 lbs of kick according to the table.

Which makes me wonder about slowing down a 130/40 grain .270 bullet to 2800 fps–which is plenty fast for good bullet performance during flight and transferring energy to the critter.  Should come close to the recoil of the 7mm-08.  That would save you the cost of a new rifle/scope; although, it is always good to have a list of reasons to buy a new rifle! and you have a dandy reason with that shoulder of yours.

??From the table and considering the weights of bullets normally used for elk, it may be difficult to get a caliber/load that kicks less than 12 lbs??–speculation there on my part.

   

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October 28, 2016 - 2:03 pm
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In this NE Oregon country, one could shoot at deer and elk @ 600 yards if you so choose. I think 300-350 yards is about as far as I want to shoot these days. I know very little about hand loads but have learned a bunch lately. I tried to sight in both of the Winchesters (270 and 7mm-08 Classics) with factory Hornady SST ammo. The box says that the 7mm-08 had a muzzle velocity of 2950 FPS with a 39 gr bullet, and the 270 @ 3090 FPS with a 140 gr bullet. With both rifles, I could not get a decent group at all. I started with the 270, had problems and then switched the scope to the 7mm-08 and had the same problems. Figured it was the scope, so bought a new scope and put it on the 7mm-08 and tried again. Nice scope, but same problem. Then I enlisted my friend the gunsmith and reloader. Went to the range, I shot, he shook his head, he shot, then looked at my ammo, and said “your rifles do not like this ammo, I need to reload some of this empty brass and we will do a ladder drill.” (Note that I had shot 4 boxes of 270 and 2.5 boxes of the 7mm-08, so had plenty of brass) He reloaded some 7mm-08 ammo and out to the range again. Him being the expert, I let him shoot. Very interesting to say the least. Amazing what different powders will do , and what different amounts of powder will do. He decided on a load for the 08, and now we have 1″ groups @ 100 yards, even with me shooting. Will do the same for the 270 ASAP. I had no idea how much difference hand loads would make. Now where’s that old scope I pitched?? Peter

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October 28, 2016 - 2:34 pm
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FromTheWoods said
So, are you saying you won’t be hunting with that .600 Nitro?

The .38-55 (10.1 lbs) is a deer and elk caliber for many hunters.  Are you looking to hunt the open areas up there, or will you be in the Blues/Wallowas?  Do you normally shoot critters under 200 yards or do you reach out for them?  There are folks over on the iFish hunting forum that swear by the 7mm-08 Rem. for deer and elk.  A 140 gr. bullet gives only 12.6 lbs of kick according to the table.

Which makes me wonder about slowing down a 130/40 grain .270 bullet to 2800 fps–which is plenty fast for good bullet performance during flight and transferring energy to the critter.  Should come close to the recoil of the 7mm-08.  That would save you the cost of a new rifle/scope; although, it is always good to have a list of reasons to buy a new rifle! and you have a dandy reason with that shoulder of yours.

??From the table and considering the weights of bullets normally used for elk, it may be difficult to get a caliber/load that kicks less than 12 lbs??–speculation there on my part.

     

I agree, that 7mm-08 is a sweet shooting rifle.  My 11-year old son shot is first buck last year with a 7mm-08. 

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October 28, 2016 - 6:53 pm
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Glad to see your problems are being solved.  Handloading does make a difference in accuaracy.  I find it interesting to load a batch of test cartridges that are in increments of a couple tenths of a grain, and in firing them, they “walk” across the target.  Nice satisfaction when a load settles in on the bullseye.

Deerhunter–Wonderful!  Son and Dad with bucks.  Hunts to remember and tell over a campfire.

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October 28, 2016 - 10:26 pm
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FromTheWoods said
Glad to see your problems are being solved.  Handloading does make a difference in accuaracy.  I find it interesting to load a batch of test cartridges that are in increments of a couple tenths of a grain, and in firing them, they “walk” across the target.  Nice satisfaction when a load settles in on the bullseye.

Deerhunter–Wonderful!  Son and Dad with bucks.  Hunts to remember and tell over a campfire.  

Thank-you.  Was definitely a year to remember.  To top it off, my dad (who’s 82 years old) got to witness his grandson shoot his buck for him.  Nothing illegal–you can do that in Oregon under the mentored youth program.  My buck scored 174 6/8 gross, but netted 169 0/8 (just 1-inch short of making the Oregon record book).  Dammit–I knew I should have shot off that fifth point Wink.

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October 29, 2016 - 4:46 pm
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Might want to think about a light weight semi-auto, the model 100 coming to mind. The gas system reduces lots of the felt recoil. Either the 284 or 308 should be just fine for your intended purposes. I believe the 284 may shoot a bit flatter. The 308’s are relatively inexpensive with very good examples to be had in the $500 range. The 284’s tend to bring more of a premium but can still be had for less than a grand.

Erin

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October 29, 2016 - 6:31 pm
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Actually I just read a piece about how semi-autos cut way down on recoil. I’m not knowledgeable on these type guns though. I have looked at and shot browning’s and liked them. Anybody else have input on the semi-autos? Does one loose speed or accuracy with the autos?  Good thought and thanks for mentioning it Erin. Peter 

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October 29, 2016 - 7:10 pm
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A word of caution concerning the Model 100. Winchester issued a recall on them in July of 1990 for a defective firing pin design . The original firing pins were breaking, jamming in the bolt in the full extended position, causing the rifle to go into a “full auto” mode. In some cases, the broken firing pin contacted the primer before the bolt was locked shut, which caused catastrophic failure of the action, and injury to the shooter. The below text is the recall notice;

IMPORTANT Recall info:

WINCHESTER MODEL 100 FIRING PIN RECALL – A notice dated 7-1990 relates the following
“PRODUCT SAFETY WARNING AND REPLACEMENT NOTICE.

Attention owners of Winchester model 100 rifles and carbines please read this notice. In July of 1990 the following product safety warning was issued by Winchester. It has come to our attention that the firing pin in the Winchester Model 100 Rifle or Carbine may break due to use and metal fatigue and become lodged in the breech bolt face. If this occurs, the firearm may fire before the action is locked causing severe damage to the firearm and possibly injury or death to the shooter and bystander.

WARNING DO NOT SHOOT YOUR WINCHESTER MODEL 100 RIFLE OR CARBINE.

Repair and replacement. A new firing pin has been designed to replace the firing pin originally made for the Winchester Model 100 Rifle and Carbine. The new firing pins will be available in April 1991. If you own a Winchester Model 100 Rifle or Carbine, please send your firearm to one of the authorized Winchester Model 100 Firing Pin Replacement Centers indicated below.

Your Winchester Model 100 firearm will be inspected, the firing pin replaced and tested and the firearm returned to you. The inspection, replacement/testing and return postage will be accomplished at no cost to you. If other repair or maintenance work is authorized by you to be performed on the firearm when the firing pin is replaced, such work shall be at your cost.”

W. R. Long Gunsmiths
2007 Brook Road North
Cobourg, Ontario K9A4W4
Canada

Frank LeFever & Sons
RD 2 Box 31
Lee Center, NY 13363
USA

Bolsa Gunsmithing
7404 Bolsa Avenue
Westminister, CA 92683
USA

Nu Line Guns
1053 Caulks Hill Road
Harvester, MO 63303
USA

If you have any questions concerning this notice, call Winchester Product Service 1-800-852-5734 or write to Winchester Firing Pin replacement Notice, PO Box 10 Cottage Hills Illinois 62018 Attention Product Service Dept.”

If you call the 1-800 number, give them the serial number, they should be able to tell you if the firing pin has been replaced. If the firing pin has not been replaced, it is my understanding that you will now to obtain the new firing pin and have it replaced on your dime.

Bert

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October 29, 2016 - 7:30 pm
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Peter,

I have owned several over the years, including Browning, Remington and the model 100 Winchester. The Winchester model 100 is/was my favorite. The Browning is probably the most accurate but not by much. I don’t have anything good to say about Remington’s auto loaders/jammomatic/point of impact changes/freeze ups in really cold weather, etc,etc,etc.  (no offense to anyone who may have found a “good” one)

The biggest significant advantage in the scenario you are describing is a weight factor. The model 100 is the lightest between it and the Browning. The BAR’s are heavy well built rifles.  I believe they are a pound or 2 heavier than the model 100. I just sold my last one of those a couple weeks ago. The model 100 was offered in a carbine also but those don’t surface very often. I gave my son my collection of 100’s which consisted of 1 of each caliber offered. 243, 308 and 284 respectively. All the 100’s I owned were about 1-1.5″ @ 100 yards. I always hand loaded my own ammo using quality components. Very seldom in my neck of the woods shots over 100 yards occur and 1″ accuracy more than fits the bill here.

Velocity loss will be negligible in an auto vs. a bolt. I guarantee the recipient of the projectile will never know the difference.

At this point I would recommend visiting your local gun shows and handling each to compare fit feel and see what works best for you. They are both offered in calibers suited quite well for what your intended purpose is. Always check the crown thoroughly on any used rifle.  If it is damaged in any way the rifle will NOT shoot accurately. Have fun shopping!Laugh

 

Erin

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