Bert H. said

mrcvs said
When did hammers & levers go from being case coloured to blued on the Winchester Model 1895?  On the Model1886s, 1892’s, 1894s this was some time during WWI.
  

Actually, it was a few years before WW I.  For the Model 1894, the case colored hammers, levers, and crescent butt plates began being phased out in 1914, and they were all but non-existent by the year 1916.
Bert
  

Yes, that seems about right based on my observations and previous posts to this forum I couldn’t locate.  What about the Model 1895?

Bob 

mrcvs said
When did hammers & levers go from being case coloured to blued on the Winchester Model 1895?  On the Model1886s, 1892’s, 1894s this was some time during WWI.
  

Actually, it was a few years before WW I.  For the Model 1894, the case colored hammers, levers, and crescent butt plates began being phased out in 1914, and they were all but non-existent by the year 1916.

Bert

I know that you have shot and do like to shoot you're rifles. What in particular do you like about shooting you're .32 Special, with that style of rear sight on it. Not being familiar with that style rear sight, is it the graduations? If I remember correctly, and without looking into my library here, is it a type of ladder sight, with the sliding graduated adjustment on it?

I did find it interesting that in you're post, you quoted what Winchester stated, that it was graduated for the B/P, and the smokeless powder! Interesting.

Thanks for sharing!

Tony

Anthony said

steve004 said
I just pulled this form the IIA Forum (2008).  This is a question that has often been considered and discussed.  We've done it here over the years but I can't find when.  
Anyway, interesting info. here:
The Winchester .32 Special cartridge was introduced in the Winchester Catalog 69, June 1902, for use in the Model 94 Winchester Rifle.
Firstly, a note appearing in the section on the 94 indicates that the .25 and .30 calibers for this rifle cannot be used with black powder. There is no further explanation with that particular note. They are referring, of course, to the .25-35 and .30-30 cartridges. They do cover, in the later page, the fact that the .32 WS is suitable for blackpowder loads.
Even though Winchester only offered the cartridge in smokeless powder loads, they offiered brass and bullets for reloading the round and suggested a load of 40 grains of black powder. While they did not offer, in that catalog, all of the specifications and reasons for the round, it is covered well in other sources.
Regarding being used with black powder, “this character was obtained with a bore diameter and 16” rifling twist corresponding to those of the .32-40 black powder cartridge." (American Rifleman Magazine, April 1972, Page 63). Evidently, at least according to the next reference cited below, the rifling was more shallow than that in the .30-30.
An author of an article entitled “Persistent Shooting Myths” published in “Precision Shooting” issue of March 1999, pages 27, 30-35, Mr. M. L. McPherson, considers this a myth. He quotes the 1916 catalog as indicating that Winchester designed the .32 Winchester Special “as a cartridge that would generate more energy than the .30 WCF (.3030) without being so powerful as the .30 Army (.30-40 Krag.” However, the explanation in the 1902 catalog contradicts his opinion that it is a myth, explaining that one of the reasons for this cartridge was to give a round that could be loaded easily and successfully with black powder (one can argue why, with the splendid .32-40 round already in existence, that it was needed at all, and I would argue that it was not, but that is a different story).
I will quote the Winchester 1902 Catalog, the original entries for this caliber, and let those reading this decide for themselves if it is a myth that the cartridge was created with black-powder reloading in mind. I have eliminated parts of the text that don’t relate directly to this specific issue:
"Rifles for the .32 Winchester Special Cartridge are fitted with a new and specially designed rear sight…which is graduated for either Smokeless or Black powder cartridges. (JLM: Bear in mind that they did not offer loaded black powder cartridges in this caliber themselves).
“The .32 Wwinchester Special Cartridge, which we have just perfected, is offered to meet the demand of many sportsmen for a Smokeless powder cartridge of larger caliber than the .30 Winchester and yet not so powerful as the .30 U.S. Army, AND WHICH COULD BE RELOADED WITH BLACK POWDER AND GIVE SATISFACTORY RESULTS.”
One can see that their statement about its power factor, as mentioned by
Mr. McPherson, is true, but is only half the original story put forth by Winchester as to the purpose of the introduction of this cartridge. The 1916 catalog, which was also consulted here, does omit that information in a much shortened explanation than the version that appears in earlier catalogs on the .32 Winchester Special cartridge. Perhaps they thought by then that interest in loading the round with black powder was waning. I cannot look into the thoughts involved in writing a catalog 90 years ago. However, the 1902 catalog, the original information on this cartridge, gives both reasons for its introduction.
If the part about the cartridge/rifle (bore especially) combination being introduced to offer sportsmen a smokeless load that can then be loaded with black powder is a myth, as McPherson claims, than it is a myth generated by those who originally designed and manufactured the cartridge, and the rifle that shot it.
Again, it is for for each person to decide. I can only present the published information here.
References: As cited above and:
Winchester Catalogs, Number 69, June 1902 and unnumbered Winchester catalog dated 1916.
  

Steve,
I'm not sure how I missed you're great information added, as I must have been still trying to awake, over early coffee!
Tony
  

Thanks Tony - 

I thought it was great information myself

I didn't comment on it before, but I was quite interested in information about the "specifically designed" .32 Special sight graduated for smokeless or black powder.  We don't know exactly what Winchester was thinking but they sure seemed to have black powder on their minds.

Here's a pair of takedown Winchesters.  Now that Tom is joined the .32 Special cult, he should like both of these rifles - M1886 .33 WCF on the bottom and M1894 .32 Special on top - with the .32 Special sight of course:

View post on imgur.com

I know some people don't think the .32 Special sight belongs on a .32 Special carbine.  I don't fall in that group.

View post on imgur.com

The sight also works fine on a pistol grip .32 Special SRC as well:

View post on imgur.com

Zeb, thanks for the offer of suppling me some ammo, I am not in dire straights as I am sure I can get some locally. Just gotta get off my butt and do it. This work thing can really interfere with chasing guns and ammo.

Steve, I was hoping you might catch these. We both seem to work on a different frequency for calibers.

steve004 said
I just pulled this form the IIA Forum (2008).  This is a question that has often been considered and discussed.  We've done it here over the years but I can't find when.  
Anyway, interesting info. here:
The Winchester .32 Special cartridge was introduced in the Winchester Catalog 69, June 1902, for use in the Model 94 Winchester Rifle.
Firstly, a note appearing in the section on the 94 indicates that the .25 and .30 calibers for this rifle cannot be used with black powder. There is no further explanation with that particular note. They are referring, of course, to the .25-35 and .30-30 cartridges. They do cover, in the later page, the fact that the .32 WS is suitable for blackpowder loads.
Even though Winchester only offered the cartridge in smokeless powder loads, they offiered brass and bullets for reloading the round and suggested a load of 40 grains of black powder. While they did not offer, in that catalog, all of the specifications and reasons for the round, it is covered well in other sources.
Regarding being used with black powder, “this character was obtained with a bore diameter and 16” rifling twist corresponding to those of the .32-40 black powder cartridge." (American Rifleman Magazine, April 1972, Page 63). Evidently, at least according to the next reference cited below, the rifling was more shallow than that in the .30-30.
An author of an article entitled “Persistent Shooting Myths” published in “Precision Shooting” issue of March 1999, pages 27, 30-35, Mr. M. L. McPherson, considers this a myth. He quotes the 1916 catalog as indicating that Winchester designed the .32 Winchester Special “as a cartridge that would generate more energy than the .30 WCF (.3030) without being so powerful as the .30 Army (.30-40 Krag.” However, the explanation in the 1902 catalog contradicts his opinion that it is a myth, explaining that one of the reasons for this cartridge was to give a round that could be loaded easily and successfully with black powder (one can argue why, with the splendid .32-40 round already in existence, that it was needed at all, and I would argue that it was not, but that is a different story).
I will quote the Winchester 1902 Catalog, the original entries for this caliber, and let those reading this decide for themselves if it is a myth that the cartridge was created with black-powder reloading in mind. I have eliminated parts of the text that don’t relate directly to this specific issue:
"Rifles for the .32 Winchester Special Cartridge are fitted with a new and specially designed rear sight…which is graduated for either Smokeless or Black powder cartridges. (JLM: Bear in mind that they did not offer loaded black powder cartridges in this caliber themselves).
“The .32 Wwinchester Special Cartridge, which we have just perfected, is offered to meet the demand of many sportsmen for a Smokeless powder cartridge of larger caliber than the .30 Winchester and yet not so powerful as the .30 U.S. Army, AND WHICH COULD BE RELOADED WITH BLACK POWDER AND GIVE SATISFACTORY RESULTS.”
One can see that their statement about its power factor, as mentioned by
Mr. McPherson, is true, but is only half the original story put forth by Winchester as to the purpose of the introduction of this cartridge. The 1916 catalog, which was also consulted here, does omit that information in a much shortened explanation than the version that appears in earlier catalogs on the .32 Winchester Special cartridge. Perhaps they thought by then that interest in loading the round with black powder was waning. I cannot look into the thoughts involved in writing a catalog 90 years ago. However, the 1902 catalog, the original information on this cartridge, gives both reasons for its introduction.
If the part about the cartridge/rifle (bore especially) combination being introduced to offer sportsmen a smokeless load that can then be loaded with black powder is a myth, as McPherson claims, than it is a myth generated by those who originally designed and manufactured the cartridge, and the rifle that shot it.
Again, it is for for each person to decide. I can only present the published information here.
References: As cited above and:
Winchester Catalogs, Number 69, June 1902 and unnumbered Winchester catalog dated 1916.
  

Steve,

I'm not sure how I missed you're great information added, as I must have been still trying to awake, over early coffee!

Tony

A friend just showed me his 1876 he knows nothing about. Made 1882, SRC, .50. Rebarrel, front end wood and barrel bands look like an 1886 carbine. Express sight. Winchester barrel address. Marked on barrel .50-70-330, and C.M. Bates. The barrel, bands, and sights look as old as the gun. Sound familiar? I will try to take a picture.

steve004 said
I just pulled this form the IIA Forum (2008).  This is a question that has often been considered and discussed.  We've done it here over the years but I can't find when.  
Anyway, interesting info. here:
The Winchester .32 Special cartridge was introduced in the Winchester Catalog 69, June 1902, for use in the Model 94 Winchester Rifle.
Firstly, a note appearing in the section on the 94 indicates that the .25 and .30 calibers for this rifle cannot be used with black powder. There is no further explanation with that particular note. They are referring, of course, to the .25-35 and .30-30 cartridges. They do cover, in the later page, the fact that the .32 WS is suitable for blackpowder loads.
Even though Winchester only offered the cartridge in smokeless powder loads, they offiered brass and bullets for reloading the round and suggested a load of 40 grains of black powder. While they did not offer, in that catalog, all of the specifications and reasons for the round, it is covered well in other sources.
Regarding being used with black powder, “this character was obtained with a bore diameter and 16” rifling twist corresponding to those of the .32-40 black powder cartridge." (American Rifleman Magazine, April 1972, Page 63). Evidently, at least according to the next reference cited below, the rifling was more shallow than that in the .30-30.
An author of an article entitled “Persistent Shooting Myths” published in “Precision Shooting” issue of March 1999, pages 27, 30-35, Mr. M. L. McPherson, considers this a myth. He quotes the 1916 catalog as indicating that Winchester designed the .32 Winchester Special “as a cartridge that would generate more energy than the .30 WCF (.3030) without being so powerful as the .30 Army (.30-40 Krag.” However, the explanation in the 1902 catalog contradicts his opinion that it is a myth, explaining that one of the reasons for this cartridge was to give a round that could be loaded easily and successfully with black powder (one can argue why, with the splendid .32-40 round already in existence, that it was needed at all, and I would argue that it was not, but that is a different story).
I will quote the Winchester 1902 Catalog, the original entries for this caliber, and let those reading this decide for themselves if it is a myth that the cartridge was created with black-powder reloading in mind. I have eliminated parts of the text that don’t relate directly to this specific issue:
"Rifles for the .32 Winchester Special Cartridge are fitted with a new and specially designed rear sight…which is graduated for either Smokeless or Black powder cartridges. (JLM: Bear in mind that they did not offer loaded black powder cartridges in this caliber themselves).
“The .32 Winchester Special Cartridge, which we have just perfected, is offered to meet the demand of many sportsmen for a Smokeless powder cartridge of larger caliber than the .30 Winchester and yet not so powerful as the .30 U.S. Army, AND WHICH COULD BE RELOADED WITH BLACK POWDER AND GIVE SATISFACTORY RESULTS.”
One can see that their statement about its power factor, as mentioned by
Mr. McPherson, is true, but is only half the original story put forth by Winchester as to the purpose of the introduction of this cartridge. The 1916 catalog, which was also consulted here, does omit that information in a much shortened explanation than the version that appears in earlier catalogs on the .32 Winchester Special cartridge. Perhaps they thought by then that interest in loading the round with black powder was waning. I cannot look into the thoughts involved in writing a catalog 90 years ago. However, the 1902 catalog, the original information on this cartridge, gives both reasons for its introduction.
If the part about the cartridge/rifle (bore especially) combination being introduced to offer sportsmen a smokeless load that can then be loaded with black powder is a myth, as McPherson claims, than it is a myth generated by those who originally designed and manufactured the cartridge, and the rifle that shot it.
Again, it is for for each person to decide. I can only present the published information here.
References: As cited above and:
Winchester Catalogs, Number 69, June 1902 and unnumbered Winchester catalog dated 1916.
  

Possibly, as the Winchester advertising department had intended, I think I fell prey to their wordsmithing as I was left with the impression that the .32 Special was a good deal closer to the .30-40 Krag in power than the 30 WCF. 

In looking at exactly what they say, they state that the .32 Special is of a larger caliber than the .30 WCF.  True enough:  .32 is larger than .30.  Next, "generate more energy than the .30 WCF" - well yes, very marginal so - but yes - at least given their published ballistics back then, and finally, "yet not so powerful as the .30 Army.  Yes!  Absolutely true - they actually only mention the .30 Army in relation to the .32 Special to say that the .32 Special is not as powerful.  Tricky - those ad guys were earning their money.

But then there is my own actual hunting experience, which suggests the .32 Special is closer to the .338 Win. Mag.

Tom - nice pair of .32 Specials you have there

That's a nice couple of specimens, and I really like them both also! The half Oct. barrel is a nice feature, as I think many would agree. To me that rear sight always looked better on a military style rifle, but it is a neat looking, and very functional rear sight. I do like the second rifle, being a T/D, in a checkered pistol grip configuration, "Deluxe", as many collectors do also.

Thanks for sharing!

Tony

Mike