I use to figure on their premier auction catalogs if the gun got a whole page they expected it to bring a minimum of 10k. This gun and a lot more blew right past that formula. When you have the condition, originality, and rarity you have the money. T/R 

Jim

martin rabeno said
Thanks for the compliments guys.
That Giovanelli rifle is pretty darn sharp though with a great inlay.  I plan on being at the Greeley show next week  I anyone is around stop and say hello. I have a 1876 I just finished.
  

Martin,

Hello,

If you read this post, just wondering what your thoughts are re the topic of discussion in the “RIA 1 of 1000 Question” thread in ‘The Winchester Rifles’ forum about a week ago.

Thank You,

Ted

You pays your money and you takes your choice, in jobs of gun engraving as in other commissioned works of art. And one man's meat is another man's poison.

But I believe there are certain verities peculiar to gun engraving. 

One of those was summed up by the late Jack O'Connor:  

If it [ a job of gun engraving] is not very well done, it is ghastly. 

I will add:  Less is usually better. The more extensive the coverage, the more the job demands perfection in pattern design, scale, and execution. An engraver of modest skill and experience might be able to produce an attractive monogram, but butcher a 50% coverage commission. The flaws add up. 

The Dallas area, perhaps Texas generally, seems to be the national repository for garish, loud, awkward, really bad gun engraving.  As Mother said at every opportunity, "Money doesn't make manners." She might have added, "or any grasp of good art."

I am not a collector of engraved pieces but I have spent a lot of years looking and trying to understand what truly excellent engraving looks like. When Jack Prudhomme was alive, his reviews and commentary were most helpful. He was aided in that by the late John Amber. I miss both of their guidance. 

The old collector's adage, "When in doubt, do without", should apply with equal force to the question of gun engraving - particularly the selection of the engraver. There are no bargains in neurosurgeons or engravers. 

mrcvs said
Even just sticking to levers—any consensus relative to the Model 1895 as to which ones by date and/or serial number should be blued or case coloured,
  

Ian,

On page #99, in the Winchester M-1895 book, which is in the, "Levers and Links section", which starts on page #98, one can see the forging drawing of the two piece jointed finger lever, unlike any other Winchester Model that we're familiar with, naturally.

There is no mention of any Case Colored Hardened Levers, as they all appear to be a bright nitre blued finish, in this book! Even on the rare serial #814, as a rare C.C.H. receiver is shown on page #71, the lever is blued. Scanning through the book, I haven't seen one with a C.C.H. lever, as I did see a few that show some honest wear of blued finish that has a very normal, and honest patina look to them.

It is my opinion, as a collector, and I am far from being an expert on this model or any other, if a M-1895 is encountered and has a case colored lever on it, I would have to say it's an aftermarket finish. IMHO!

Tony

As far as FACTORY engraved M70s, I know of at least (9) authenticated ones, not counting ones that are just monogrammed or were done as outside commissions like my Dad's gun pictured earlier.  Of those nine, seven were done by George Ulrich and two by John Kusmit.  

While it's apparently true that the engravers hated to work on M70s due to their hardened receivers and lack of flat surfaces to embellish, I'm pretty sure you'd have to have some pretty serious polydactly to count them all on two hands... There are probably quite a few of them out there IF you could only authenticate them as having been originally ordered that way.

Lou

Bert is correct insofar as I know.  At least some of the Model 21 records exist, as these were mostly bespoke (made to order) shotguns and the records were preserved.  Not true for anything else.  I tried to track down information when doing the RCS article and pretty much came up with zip... 

The best records for documenting Winchester factory engraving would be the engraver's log books.  At least for work done while "on the clock", as these logs were where they recorded their hours.  Of course any work they did "on the side" (and they all did outside work except Ed Crowley) wouldn't be recorded.  As I understand it CFM has many of the engraver's logs from the 19th Century.  Like the Shipping Department ledgers, they are not available for viewing on-line, but I suppose that if you had a suspected John Ulrich engraved M1873 you could possibly get them to find something in his engraver's log.  I have been told that the individual engravers varied in terms of how much detail they put into their log, some have sketches or smoke pulls, others don't have much...

Pertaining to M70s (1937 - 1963)... Nobody seems to have Alden George Ulrich's logs (1919-1949), but McCracken Library is supposed to be checking for me...  Pauline has many (or all) of the logbooks beginning with John Kusmit and ending with her own.  So she might very well be able to find something on later Custom Shop engraved guns.

Best,

Lou

Zebulon said
Ted,  I'd agree with that assessment. Bolt action rifles are not the ideal canvas for engraving and I confess I don't care for most I've seen. 
However, unless I misunderstand WRA'S record-keeping, that shouldn't be a matter for speculation. Aren't the Custom Shop records from 1937 to 1963 preserved in some fashion? If a factory engraving job were ordered, wouldn't there still be a record of it? 
I understand at least minimal information is still available to Cody on every Model 21 built in New Haven; and that is true only because those were all built by the facility that became the Custom Shop. 
Somebody with knowledge please correct me if this isn't the case. 
  

I do not believe that the CFM has any of the Custom Shop records other than the Model 21.  I do not know the extent of the records that Pauline Muerrle has, but I am led to believe that she has the Custom Shop records well beyond the year 1963.

Bert

Tedk said
One could likely count the number of legitimate factory engraved pre64 M70’s on two hands
  

My bet is that the actual number is at least several dozen.

Bert

However, unless I misunderstand WRA'S record-keeping, that shouldn't be a matter for speculation. Aren't the Custom Shop records from 1937 to 1963 preserved in some fashion? If a factory engraving job were ordered, wouldn't there still be a record of it? 

I understand at least minimal information is still available to Cody on every Model 21 built in New Haven; and that is true only because those were all built by the facility that became the Custom Shop. 

Somebody with knowledge please correct me if this isn't the case.